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Can Israels policy of killing civilians along with thier Hamas targets really be considered as "self defence" and in moral opposition to the Hamas attempts to kill civilians?


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Showing 1-25 of 241 posts in this discussion
Initial post: 15 Nov 2012 06:50:57 GMT
Last edited by the author on 16 Nov 2012 01:12:49 GMT
Spin says:
Yahweh is a strange guy..

Posted on 15 Nov 2012 07:08:06 GMT
Well, I suppose they at least make the excuse of going for 'terrorist' targets rather than just aiming for anyone from the 'opposition'.

In reply to an earlier post on 15 Nov 2012 12:07:49 GMT
Molly Brown says:
Suspected terrorists, children too, surgical strikes, collateral damage.
An eye for an eye, or in Israel's case, 100 eyes for 1 eye. It all bodes well for the forthcoming election in Israel, vote for war!!

Posted on 15 Nov 2012 12:21:00 GMT
Aisha says:
Surely, even Israel's open admission that it is going to target (i.e. murder) all Hamas members, is not only a war crime, it's tantamount to ethnic cleansing. All Hamas member are muslims, so to make a specific target against them is akin to Nazis targeting jews - or ethnic cleansing. Whatever we think of Hamas as a group, they were elected via open democratic elections - and got a huge majority to win (their electoral system was cleaner & more open that that in the USA). Israel have become the world's worst terrorist state.

In reply to an earlier post on 15 Nov 2012 12:24:54 GMT
Where's the anti-Palestinian attack stance in your post ?

Yes, Israel return fire when they are attacked, they attack on those suspected/proven to be terrorists by either their actions or planned actions, and in such situations, as much as I hate the term, there will be collateral damage - but I doubt very much that Israels aims, when striking terrorists, is to kill as many civilians as possible.

On the opposite side you have those firing from Gaza whose sole aim would seem to be to hit anyone/anything - it matters not if you are military, government figure, children in a bus, or a mother at market as long as SOMEONE has been hit.
And, along the lines of collateral damage, where is the argument against the 'human shield' - a device used for lord knows how long in an attempt to disuade attack, similar to holding hostages. Dangerous people who use innocents to 'protect' themselves.

100 eyes for 1 eye ?? Helps when you have better soldiers and better equipment, you are undoubtly more likely to hit your target than someone firing randomly.

There are wrongs on both sides, but if someone attacked me then I would retaliate. As would most people. A matter that is really no different with countries.

In reply to an earlier post on 15 Nov 2012 12:28:10 GMT
Molly Brown says:
Why do the Israeli's behave like the NSDAP, retaliations on similar levels, i.e. a German life was worth at least 100 slavic lives or more. Israel got what they wanted through terrorist attacks and illegal military operations and stealing Palestinian lands. Do ordinary Israeli's really want to carry on living like this? Do ordinary Palestinians wanat to carry on living like this? I doubt it. The land is Palestine, and they welcomed Jews into a safe haven to live in peace with eachother. It should have stayed like that.

In reply to an earlier post on 15 Nov 2012 12:31:06 GMT
Please. It would be ethnic cleansing if they had openly admitted to planning on the destruction of all Palestinians. Your argument is ridiculous. Israel has not announced that it wants to rid the world of all Muslims, if that were their aim then that would be similar, but just because those terrorists are Muslims does not entail the will to kill ALL Muslims.

And to compare the targetting of terrorists to the genocide of the Jews. I mean really, it beggars belief.

In which case I assume you'll want all members of NATO forces tried for war crimes along with the Israelis then ?

In reply to an earlier post on 15 Nov 2012 12:31:11 GMT
Molly Brown says:
I posted before reading your reply, but basically I still feel the same about Israel. Palestinians are treated like second class citizens in their own lands, by those superior European Israeli's who have no real claim to be there at the expense of Palestinian losses of lands.

In reply to an earlier post on 15 Nov 2012 12:31:56 GMT
Dan Fante says:
[Customers don't think this post adds to the discussion. Show post anyway. Show all unhelpful posts.]

In reply to an earlier post on 15 Nov 2012 12:41:56 GMT
Molly Brown says:
I didn't mention the genocide of Jews, I was referring to Partisan retaliations by the Nazi's against villages who they believed were supporting them. Reprisals such as the destruction of Lidice in 1942.

In reply to an earlier post on 15 Nov 2012 12:47:51 GMT
Last edited by the author on 15 Nov 2012 12:49:18 GMT
Molly, that post was to Sharron - who seems to think that eradicating a violent terrorist sub-section of Muslims is equal to wishing to eradicate all of that religion.

Retaliations like that have been used for centuries, if not millenia, as a deterrant to the opposition. Never know, maybe they'll start using decimation for a real kick to the past ;)

In reply to an earlier post on 15 Nov 2012 13:03:44 GMT
Last edited by the author on 15 Nov 2012 13:04:29 GMT
Molly Brown says:
Sorry, but I did say 100 eyes for 1 eye to start with. The Israeli's are not really threatened by these attacks, they are professionals, whereas Hamas do not have the techology of armaments to target in "surgical attacks". The Israeli's seem to be using this latest incident for political advancement, unsure perhaps of Obama's real comittment to their apparent desire to wipe Iran off the map.

I was trying to find a documentary I saw recently on Al Jazeera which was about Yaffe, or Jaffe, before the state of Israel. Fascinating how Jews and Arabs seemed to get along with each other until the Zionists took control of Palestine and made it the state of Israel. Jaffe was the original town that is now just part of Tel Aviv I believe. I can't find the link to it, but will continue to look. It is heartbreaking what was done to those Palestinians who welcomed their Jewish brothers to Palestine, and ending up having their farms and lands confiscated by Israel and having to work as second class citizens for the new European intake after WW2. That area of the mediterranean should be a peaceful area, fantastic lands, all along the coasts. Not places where not only we fear to visit but where the native people themselves fear to live.

In reply to an earlier post on 15 Nov 2012 13:20:53 GMT
"Sorry, but I did say 100 eyes for 1 eye to start with"

I answered/responded to that part in a separate comment. You were saying you didn't mention genocide, but that was in my response to Sharron.

"until the Zionists took control of Palestine and made it the state of Israel"

Can probably blame Britain for that. There's a quote, I can't remember it exactly which is something along the lines of 'One man promised another man the land of a third man'.

Well, I think something we can probably both agree on is this - I really hope there isn't a war with Iran, I can't see it ending well for anyone.

In reply to an earlier post on 15 Nov 2012 13:39:23 GMT
Molly Brown says:
Just about sums up The British Empire and the messes "they" have left behind, India and Pakistan, millions died as a result.

Posted on 15 Nov 2012 13:53:20 GMT
Last edited by the author on 15 Nov 2012 13:58:27 GMT
Dan Fante says:
While Britain hardly has a legacy to be proud of in Palestine lets not forget the people living there have had 60 years to sort things out. It's also a tad naive to suggest problems only started in the region when Israel was created.

Posted on 16 Nov 2012 13:24:01 GMT
John Smith says:
It seems to me that there are certain facts here - first the vast majority of the dying is and has been done by Palestinians - something the biased reporting generally seen in the media never seems to get across. They had their lands taken by force by what is now a nuclear state defined by a particular religion. Furthermore, it is backed up fully condoned, supported and armed by the most powerful country on the planet so that it can pretty much do whatever it likes - eg the bombing of parts of Lebanon and killing of people with absolutely no connection to the palestinian issue.
Adding to that the process of ethnic cleansing carries on with settlement building and immigration of people who have no link within any living memory with the region.

The despair of the Palestinians must be truly immense given their complete lack of any hope whatsoever

Posted on 17 Nov 2012 07:05:44 GMT
Spin says:
The state of Israel has no historical or political right to the land it kills people for. Artificial states, such as Israel, the US, Pakistan, North Korea, etc will remain in conflict with other nations simply because they are modern constructions created through violence and the disregard for native populations..

Posted on 17 Nov 2012 07:32:13 GMT
Spin says:
[Customers don't think this post adds to the discussion. Show post anyway. Show all unhelpful posts.]

In reply to an earlier post on 17 Nov 2012 16:25:45 GMT
Pendragon says:
K

"they [the Israelis] at least make the excuse of going for 'terrorist' targets"

Such as that well known terrorist target, the children's football playground.

On Saturday, 10 November 2012, Israeli military vehicles stationed at the border between the Gaza Strip and Israel fired an artillery shell at a number of Palestinian children who were playing football east of Gaza City and nearly 1,500 meters away from the border. As a result, 2 children were instantly killed [Mohammed Ussama Hassan Harara (16) and Ahmed Mustafa Khaled Harara (17)].

Following this attack, a number of Palestinian civilians rushed to the area, where the IOF immediately fired another 3 shells. As a result, 2 Palestinian civilians (aged 18 and 19) were instantly killed. Additionally, 38 civilians, including 8 children, were wounded, 10 seriously.

See http://tinyurl.com/afk9f8w

On 10 and 12 November, 8 and 2 rockets respectively were fired into Israel from Gaza. No rockets were fired on 11 (or 13) November.

On 13 November a truce brokered by Egypt took hold.

Yet on 14 November, in breach of the truce, Israel carried out the widely publicised extrajudicial killing of Hamas military chief Ahmad al-Jabari and his bodyguard by a drone strike. Later the same day, Israeli warplanes bombed about 20 underground launch sites and ammunition warehouses in the Gaza Strip, killing a further 6 Palestinian militants and civilians. These attacks were the start of Israel's "Operation Pillar of Defense".

That night 50 or more rockets were fired into Israel from Gaza. The crisis has since escalated, resulting in further civilian deaths on both sides.

And also resulting in claims by Israel that its airstrikes are in response to rocket attacks from Gaza.

The truth is somewhat less straightforward.

Posted on 17 Nov 2012 20:14:00 GMT
Last edited by the author on 17 Nov 2012 21:10:06 GMT
"Thousands of Gaza residents chanted "Retaliation" and "We want you to hit Tel Aviv tonight."

Don't really help themselves though do they. A Hamas leader also came out and said violence will only end when Jerusalem is liberated from the occupation.
I mean come on, they should realise that if it comes to air assault or ground assault, then Hamas will get their asses handed to them by the IDF so sorting proper peace talks out, and not firing into Israel all the time, should be their priority.
There have been 768 rockets fired into Israel from Gaza since the start of this year.
Hamas also executed a man *they* said was an informer on Friday during prayer.

Don't tend to hear much bad about the Palestinian side of this conflict. As Jeffrey Goldberg said to a Syrian who asked why they receive so little attention compared to the Palestinians:
"What should we do to get more attention?
My advice is to get killed by Jews. Always works."

Posted on 18 Nov 2012 09:24:00 GMT
Last edited by the author on 18 Nov 2012 09:27:18 GMT
Hamas wants to murder as many Israelis as possible in terrorist attacks.

Israel tries to stop these terrorists.

And, in return, otherwise intelligent posters have the sheer nerve to have a pop at them for doing so, and are so utterly lacking in perspective, they compare them to Nazis.

You are a fugging disgrace.

In reply to an earlier post on 18 Nov 2012 09:42:06 GMT
Israel only exists as enmity to / schism from surrounding nations. It is all relative. Do you understand that? The original separatists / nationalists. So all this talk of "innocent, pure as a dove Israel" is quite wretch-inducing to me. Speaking almost as though Israel were not primarily concerned with dehumanizing and getting a foot-up on non-Israelis, whom it sees as little more than beasts, which they are free to exploit and abuse. With an air of moral superiority, for nothing other than Israel's self-imposed separatism.

The core of its existence is to oppress non-Israelis. That's how it exists in the first place! Helloooo. So I don't know why people act surprised when this causes grievance and gets people's backs up. Especially seeing as Israel is essentially a glorified army, flexing its muscles "to defend itself" (against the people it itself dehumanized in the first place). Oh, those poor, pure Israelis!

You have to be in deep denial to think Israel represents purity on any level. The only purity it represents is dangerous naivety and ignorance.

Posted on 18 Nov 2012 09:46:17 GMT
A continual state of volatile, murderous, oppressive, stubborn nationalism / separatism. Self-imposed. Willful.

It should be no surprise that this creates enmity. The question is who threw the first stone?

In reply to an earlier post on 18 Nov 2012 11:52:56 GMT
Last edited by the author on 18 Nov 2012 17:32:33 GMT
Lee Enfield says:
Israel was founded by terrorists. Their first 'Prime Minister' (Ben Gurien) was the leader of the Stern Gang - responsible for blowing up the King David Hotel and the murder of many British soldiers (including the public hanging of a captured patrol). Ben Hecht said "A flower blooms in my heart every time a British soldier is killed". These were the same soldiers who had fought their way across Europe to liberate the concentration camps while Ben Guriien was safely tucked up in Italy.

Posted on 18 Nov 2012 12:19:49 GMT
Very clear It is not self defense , what Israel doing is pure terrorism. The west use double standard in this issue , A hypocrites
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Discussion in:  politics discussion forum
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Total posts:  241
Initial post:  15 Nov 2012
Latest post:  29 Nov 2012

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