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Joyeux Quatorze Juilliet! / Happy Bastille Day!


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Initial post: 14 Jul 2013 12:15:57 BDT
Mel says:
It being the 14th of July it is Bastille Day! Célébrons, mes amis!

francophile though i am, i am a monarchist first and prefer our lovely monarchy to the late innovation across the channel!

In reply to an earlier post on 14 Jul 2013 15:34:00 BDT
Explain why an unelected Monarch has a place in a democratic society.

In reply to an earlier post on 14 Jul 2013 16:14:06 BDT
Mel says:
You're looking at the problem the wrong way around, citoyen! A fig for democracy!

In reply to an earlier post on 14 Jul 2013 18:14:09 BDT
Last edited by the author on 14 Jul 2013 18:14:44 BDT
TomC says:
Perhaps Saudi Arabia would suit you? Or do you only like monarchies which act in ways which meet with your approval? If so, I rather think you've missed the point.

In reply to an earlier post on 14 Jul 2013 19:14:37 BDT
Mel says:
i am a loyal subject of the crown of this realm and repose my faith in god, not the giddy herd - no, nor in the monarchs of far off lands about which i know little. i love France & the french, but am not interested in republics as a form of govt. i have my preferences - you have yours m8. thanks for yr contribution!

Posted on 14 Jul 2013 19:39:20 BDT
Tito says:
The reign of the people over the republic during the French revolution was one of the greatest, most magnanimous acts of the 18th century. Hopefully, that same fervent revolutionary spirit will once again lead the workers of the world to another world-changing revolution. One which will shake the capitalist governments to rubble and build a nation of equals! Fraternite, Equalite, Liberte! Viva la revolution!!

In reply to an earlier post on 14 Jul 2013 20:09:56 BDT
Mel says:
'once again lead the workers of the world '

Are we on about the same revolution tito? the 1789 one that put the middle class in the saddle??? not really a proletarian show, but then nor was the Russian Revolution of 1917. i suppose that is why we say the workers are 'led'.

In reply to an earlier post on 14 Jul 2013 20:17:55 BDT
Anita says:
Well - I honestly hope that is *not* going to happen, Tito. Hopefully there are some intelligent people in the world to learn from the mistakes of the others, instead of repeating them.

It's funny how most revolutionaries just want to destroy something to rubble - and then are left sitting on a pile of rubble, unable to build anything

In reply to an earlier post on 14 Jul 2013 20:26:51 BDT
Mel says:
'It is a vain hope to make people happy by politics' (Tho' Carlyle)

In reply to an earlier post on 14 Jul 2013 20:38:08 BDT
gille liath says:
Well, I don't think the French Revolution can entirely be described as a mistake. Only having had one king, you probably don't realise what a bloody liability they are.

In reply to an earlier post on 14 Jul 2013 20:42:47 BDT
Anita says:
I do agree about kings. :) But "shake the capitalist governments to rubble" sounds just teenagerish. And you didn't experience "a nation of equals". I do hope you never will

In reply to an earlier post on 14 Jul 2013 20:44:54 BDT
gille liath says:
No, but I hope one day I do get to experience a nation of equals - no quotation marks.

To put it another way: I'm not keen on revolutions, but I'm not keen on despotism and privilege either.

In reply to an earlier post on 14 Jul 2013 20:45:39 BDT
Last edited by the author on 15 Jul 2013 19:45:29 BDT
TomC says:
Yes, but the "crown of this realm" is not a monarchy as most would understand it. There was an event back in 1649 which forcibly reminded the British monarchy of the limitations of its power.

Absolute monarchy exists in a state in which the monarch can issue any command he or she likes and it will be obeyed, on pain of nasty things happening to the transgressors. It matters not whether the monarch is stupid, sadistic or insane; whatever he or she says, goes.

That is true monarchy. It seems, however, that you prefer our watered-down version, in which the power of the crown is severely limited by a constitution which, whether you like it or not, exists due to democracy. I can't say I blame you, but it bears as much resemblance to the real thing as a caged lion slumbering in a zoo has to the ferocious, ravenous beast which would pursue you if you were to encounter it in the wild.

Our royal family does, however, continue to display an appetite for our money, in return for which they give us ... well ... very little, actually. We would not be any worse off without them. Tourists still continue to turn up at Versailles, despite the fact that there is no King there.

In reply to an earlier post on 14 Jul 2013 20:47:03 BDT
gille liath says:
Maybe - but the caged lion still expects us to feed it.

In reply to an earlier post on 14 Jul 2013 20:51:40 BDT
TomC says:
Indeed.

In reply to an earlier post on 15 Jul 2013 19:18:14 BDT
Charlieost says:
The Soviet Union built a war machine from the rubble which destroyed the Nazis during the latter part of the Second World War.

Napoleon took over vast swathes of Europe.

Not bad going for post revolutionary countries. C

In reply to an earlier post on 15 Jul 2013 20:00:02 BDT
Mel says:
Impressive, Charlielost!

"One of the bloodiest despots in modern history, Joseph Stalin helped transform the Soviet Union into a military and industrial superpower, but at a staggering cost in human lives and suffering. In the words of scholar Stephen Cohen, Stalin's rule was a "holocaust by terror" that "victimized tens of millions of people for twenty-five years."

Human life had little value for Stalin, who viewed people largely as instruments for serving the needs of the state. In the late 1920s, Stalin launched a massive drive to transform Soviet industry and agriculture. To support industrialization, he ordered the collectivization of agriculture and the creation of large-scale communal farms. But collectivization soon turned into a bloody civil war that raged across the countryside, resulting in the death and deportation of five to eight million people. Those who resisted faced either execution or exile to "special settlements" in remote northern regions, where up to a third of them died from the harsh conditions. Collectivization proved even more deadly during the famine years of 1932 and 1933 when an estimated five to eight million peasants died in Ukraine and Central Asia. Some scholars view this famine as a deliberate act of genocide, whereas others blame it on bureaucratic incompetence and poor planning.

Repression was central to Stalin's leadership from the beginning. Throughout the period from 1929 to 1953 the regime employed tactics of terror, arresting people on false charges of conspiracy and espionage, then either executing them or sentencing them to labor camps, where they toiled in harsh, debilitating conditions. Chronic absenteeism at work or picking up grain husks from a harvested field could bring a ten-year sentence. According to one scholar, over twenty-eight million Soviet citizens passed through the forced labor camps and colonies between 1929 and 1953. Located all across the Soviet Union, in every time zone, the camps were filthy, brutal, and dehumanizing. Death rates were high, averaging about 6 percent per year. One archival source states that over two million inmates died in the camps between 1929 and 1953, but this does not include all categories of prisoners.

The height of the Stalinist repression, known as the Great Terror, lasted from 1936 to 1939. The majority of victims during this period were from the Communist Party, the economic ministries, the military, the Communist International, and minority nationalities. No precise figures exist. Official KGB figures for 1937938 claim that just under 700,000 were executed and that at the beginning of the 1940s there were about 3.6 million in labor camps and prisons. Stephen Wheatcroft and R. W. Davies have calculated that the total number of excess deaths from 1927 to 1938 may have amounted to some ten million persons, 8.5 million killed between 1927 and 1936 and about 1 to 1.5 million between 1937 and 1938.

During World War II, the Stalinist regime carried out ethnic cleansing, though the exact motives remain unclear. It deported 400,000 Volga Germans to Central Asia and Siberia out of fear that they would support the invading enemy. Between 1943 and 1944, Stalin ordered the deportation of about a million Chechens, Crimean Tatars, Balkars, Kalmiks, and Turks from their homelands to Central Asia, alleging that they had collaborated with the Germans. Transported in sealed boxcars, with no fresh air, proper food, sanitation, or medical care, as many as 40 percent died along the way from hunger, cold, and disease. Those who resisted the deportation were shot. Prior to the war, in 1940, Stalin had ordered the execution of 21,857 Poles. Of these, over 4,000 were officers who were shot and buried in mass graves in the Katyn Forest (Smolensk region). This crime was denied by the Soviet regime for fifty years.ter the war, smaller-scale repressions continued to fill the camps. The number of prisoners rose from 1,460,676 in 1945 to 2,468,524 in 1953. The postwar period was marked by fierce attacks on creative artists, deportations of Balt, Moldavian, and Ukrainian populations, and a virulent anti-Semitic campaign that culminated in the arrests in 1953 of nine Kremlin doctors on charges of murder and treason." [Stalin, Joseph, Crimes Against Humanity, e-notes.com]

Napoleon's rule was short lived. 1799-1815. Emperor of France and King of Italy - he turned out to be very post-revolutionary indeed!

In reply to an earlier post on 15 Jul 2013 20:16:17 BDT
TomC says:
Podmore will be along shortly to tell you that this is all fascist propaganda; lovable old Uncle Joe was actually a wise, humane, far-seeing visionary, who became the victim of corrupt western capitalist imperialist royalist Trotskyist running-dog media lackeys.

Besides, you can't make an omelette without breaking eggs, you know!

In reply to an earlier post on 15 Jul 2013 20:27:22 BDT
Mel says:
Yes, Tom. Once in the Lubyanka I will freely confess that I am in the pay of a Cosmopolitan-rightist Unified-Bukharinite terror-hydra and beg to be executed to expiate my crime! Toiling masses of the world, beware!

In reply to an earlier post on 15 Jul 2013 20:58:22 BDT
gille liath says:
"you can't make an omelette without breaking eggs, you know!"

The cry of revolutionaries, then and now. Somehow I don't think they ever envisage themselves among the eggs.

In reply to an earlier post on 15 Jul 2013 21:13:39 BDT
Last edited by the author on 15 Jul 2013 21:19:57 BDT
TomC says:
Well, they say that revolutions end up devouring their own children ...

In reply to an earlier post on 15 Jul 2013 21:25:03 BDT
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In reply to an earlier post on 15 Jul 2013 21:25:30 BDT
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In reply to an earlier post on 15 Jul 2013 21:26:23 BDT
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In reply to an earlier post on 15 Jul 2013 21:44:19 BDT
Anita says:
Charlieost - the Soviet Union remained in rubble for 70 years, occupying other countries along the way. It has never been anything else, just a pile of rubble. You may as well trust someone who was born and grew up in one of the occupied countries.

For the methods of building the war machine, see the post below yours.

Actually the Soviet Union should *never* have happened. The harm done by it isn't yet healed even now.

Napoleon ended quite badly, as far as I remember. And France didn't end up communist, lucky French
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This discussion

Discussion in:  politics discussion forum
Participants:  12
Total posts:  63
Initial post:  14 Jul 2013
Latest post:  26 Jul 2013

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