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Why does the English government support Ukranian and Syrian national independence, but is at pains to deny such freedom to Scotland?


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Showing 1-25 of 86 posts in this discussion
Initial post: 25 Feb 2014 20:10:48 GMT
Spin says:
How can the English support the independence and freedom of nations while actively attempting to deny it to Scotland?

Posted on 25 Feb 2014 20:13:22 GMT
Last edited by the author on 25 Feb 2014 20:39:21 GMT
gille liath says:
Any pains...except preventing them having a vote on it.

You just don't seem to get it, Spin. The Scots have freedom *now*. If they go for independence they will not be any more free. They are free because they have the power to choose whichever they want.

Besides, as your own Ukrainian thread implies, once you start seceding you soon find that 'independence' isn't as simple a matter as it superficially appears. Little bugs have lesser bugs, and so ad infinitum.

In reply to an earlier post on 25 Feb 2014 20:20:03 GMT
Spin says:
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Posted on 25 Feb 2014 20:53:18 GMT
Anita says:
A question to you both: is Catalonia free? They have autonomy, they (possibly) have a referendum pending, more or less like Scotland. And still. In past 10 years or so I happened to talk with several Catalans, and they very much did not feel free and wanted to separate from Spain.

It's a bit different with Basques, but let's stick with Catalonia. Would you say it's a free country being part of Spain, or would you say it isn't?

In reply to an earlier post on 25 Feb 2014 20:58:18 GMT
Last edited by the author on 25 Feb 2014 20:58:50 GMT
gille liath says:
Let me ask you one back: is Spain not free, because it is part of the EU?

You can't please everybody, that's why we have majority rule. But self-determination - if that means anything - does *not* automatically mean a separate state. What it means is the power to form a separate state *if* that nation wishes.

In reply to an earlier post on 25 Feb 2014 21:01:35 GMT
Spin says:
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In reply to an earlier post on 25 Feb 2014 22:11:47 GMT
gille liath says:
Spin, if you had the slightest knowledge of British history you wouldn't make those comparisons.

In reply to an earlier post on 25 Feb 2014 22:14:14 GMT
Spin says:
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Posted on 25 Feb 2014 22:27:15 GMT
gille liath says:
I think you need to brush up on your Maiden, mate. ;)

Anyway, you miss the point. For the purpose of this thread, I'm not arguing which way they should vote. I'm saying the fact that they can determine whether they are to be part of the UK or not means they are already free. Tibet, Chechnya etc do not have the equivalent power.

In reply to an earlier post on 25 Feb 2014 22:29:25 GMT
Spin says:
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In reply to an earlier post on 26 Feb 2014 08:50:05 GMT
Dan Fante says:
Perhaps they should just vote "yes" in the upcoming referendum if they want to go it alone. Just over half don't seem to want to at present though, going off the polls. Comparing their situation to those in Ukraine and Syria is as insulting as it is ridiculous.

Posted on 26 Feb 2014 09:21:25 GMT
Roma says:
I agree with you there, Dan. I was talking to one of my sons who did a degree in politics some years ago. He told me that one of his lecturers said that SNP supporters were urged to vote Tory, as only with a Conservative government would independence have a chance. Obviously, if this were true, it wouldn't have had any real effect on the outcome of the election, but I think many who will vote for independence will do so as a way to get rid of this coalition - a permanent solution to hopefully a temporary problem.

In reply to an earlier post on 3 Mar 2014 17:29:29 GMT
The Emperor says:
You used to troll better than this.

Posted on 3 Mar 2014 19:51:58 GMT
Obelix says:
Spin's talents do seen to be waning, yes.

In reply to an earlier post on 4 Mar 2014 03:38:52 GMT
JimmyMac says:
Roma: I would say your post is nearer the mark. Time after time the Scottish voters elect to be governed by a socialist party at every election. Only to end up being governed by the party they rejected, due to the overwhelming majority of tory voters in the south of England. This, as well as Maggie's poll tax was as much to blame as anything to help fuel the demand for independence.
Some of you on here seemingly need reminding that Scotland is not an English region, but a country in it's own right, with a culture and a history equally as old as England's.
And as for opinion polls. It's been shown time and again, that opinion poll results themselves can be used to influence some voters. This fact has not been lost on many western Gov'ts. Some opinion polls are nothing but blatant propaganda. For instance the opinion polls that many of you like to quote are conducted by the establishment controlled media, like the BBC.
The Scottish people are under no illusion the propaganda war in this debate will get nastier and dirtier as September draws near.
You can bet Gov't agencies like MI5. and MI6. will be employed to dish the dirt on the main protagonists in the yes camp.

Posted on 4 Mar 2014 10:23:01 GMT
Last edited by the author on 4 Mar 2014 10:48:41 GMT
eric rambler says:
A quick look at history shows that independence from what was the "British Empire" has been a disaster for virtually all of the countries who achieved it. From Ireland to Africa what has happened is leaders have emerged to systematically rob the people, making UK corruption look somewhat amateur, lacking in imagination and scale. Even now you would have to be mad to want independence from the UK, the best you could hope for is that your politicians are seeking glory.

Independence is a great idea, it just doesn't seem to work.

In reply to an earlier post on 4 Mar 2014 11:21:55 GMT
Spin says:
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Posted on 4 Mar 2014 11:31:12 GMT
The Emperor says:
You aren't expressing your views.
I would disagree with some of the things the two posters after me said but I wouldn't call them trolls.

I think the four hours a day that you spend on these forums is getting to you. The spin of 10,000 posts ago would be disappointed with you.

In reply to an earlier post on 4 Mar 2014 11:33:40 GMT
Spin says:
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In reply to an earlier post on 4 Mar 2014 11:38:41 GMT
Spin says:
Eric: Independence has been a disaster for ex-colonies only because they tried to follow the English example in politics, economics and culture. An independent nation can only succeed by kicking out not only the physical presence of an invader but their ideology as well. A truly independent nation must be independent in ALL things, including politics, economics and social structure.

In reply to an earlier post on 4 Mar 2014 11:46:01 GMT
Last edited by the author on 4 Mar 2014 11:52:11 GMT
gille liath says:
Oh, I see - it's *not* having a separate state that makes a people free? Whaddya know?

Maybe Scotland should experiment with military dictatorship, like our former possessions of Pakistan, Egypt or Burma? Apartheid like South Africa? Or ethnic/religious genocide like Sudan? They certainly succeeded in throwing off British ideology.

In reply to an earlier post on 4 Mar 2014 12:04:06 GMT
Last edited by the author on 4 Mar 2014 12:09:22 GMT
eric rambler says:
Oh I see! So this is what you think the SNP may achieve....

And actually the reason independence has been a disaster is that the new regimes generally had even less concern for the welfare of their citizens than the previous one.

In reply to an earlier post on 4 Mar 2014 12:10:34 GMT
gille liath says:
Actually though, Scotland is not a colonial possession of England, and these comparisons are not going to be very illuminating.

In reply to an earlier post on 4 Mar 2014 12:13:43 GMT
Spin says:
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In reply to an earlier post on 4 Mar 2014 12:18:03 GMT
eric rambler says:
Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose...
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This discussion

Discussion in:  politics discussion forum
Participants:  15
Total posts:  86
Initial post:  25 Feb 2014
Latest post:  9 Apr 2014

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