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Convicted of a Crime Abroad


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Showing 1-25 of 36 posts in this discussion
Initial post: 31 Jan 2013 19:58:48 GMT
Roma says:
Lindsay Sandiford has been refused financial help from the UK government to appeal against her death sentence for smuggling drugs in Bali. What support, if any, do you think people convicted of a crime in a foreign country should receive from the British government. Should it depend on the nature of the crime; the severity of the sentence received; belief in the innocence of the person; or the trustworthiness of the judicial system of the country where the crime occurred and the trial was held. Alternatively, should anyone found guilty of a crime abroad be left to face the penalty laid down by that court?

Interested in what people think.

In reply to an earlier post on 1 Feb 2013 05:15:13 GMT
Spin says:
Roma: While I diagree with death penalty under any circumstances, if one commits a crime one should be tried, sentenced and punished according to that nations laws. If we disagree with the judicial procedure and/or sentence passed on our overseas citizens then we must appeal to agreed international laws concerning crime and punishment. However, instances of western nationals being tried overseas is rare and so there is no independent internationally agreed body to monitor these sotuations and aid the accused. If one is aressted overseas, the only limited and ineffectual aid one has comes from ones embassy (if indeed there is one). As a man who has spent his life travelling around the world, I can tell you that once you leave the shores of your nation, you are on your own and your concept of culture and law is useless. Commit a crime in another country and one has no-one to blame for the consequences but oneself.

In reply to an earlier post on 1 Feb 2013 08:22:47 GMT
"Lindsay Sandiford has been refused financial help from the UK government to appeal against her death sentence for smuggling drugs in Bali"

Good.

The government shouldn't be doing anything extra for people outside of consular assistance, possibly a lawyer - if you go to a foreign country and break the law there then you deserve the punishment that is given to you. And as far as I'm aware, drug smuggling is illegal in all countries so it's not as if you can play the 'I didn't know' card.

Posted on 1 Feb 2013 08:50:01 GMT
Last edited by the author on 1 Feb 2013 09:09:17 GMT
Dan Fante says:
Call me a cynic but I think the attempt to sue the British Government will have come about through her lawyer(s) trying to make some cash. I think upon appeal the sentence will probably be altered anyway. Incidentally, she claimed during the trial that her family were threatened but apparently this same family can't between them find the £2,500 she needs for her appeal (apparently a lawyer in Indonesia has offered to waive costs but needs that amount to cover their expenses, which is fair enough). Also, this charity 'Reprieve' seems to be involved a lot so if they care so much perhaps they can pay for it. Having said that, the hearing at the High Court that decided she wasn't due the money will have cost more than a couple of grand I would have thought, but I think the decision was correct. And while I don't think that it's always the case that anyone found guilty of a crime abroad be left to face the penalty laid down by that court, I don't have much sympathy for someone smuggling 5kgs of cocaine in S.E. Asia. Also, once she was caught she gave up the names of everyone else involved in the hope of a reduced sentence but she couldn't go to the police before because of threats to her family? I don't buy it.

Posted on 1 Feb 2013 09:32:55 GMT
Last edited by the author on 19 Feb 2013 13:32:51 GMT
BOOK LOVER says:
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In reply to an earlier post on 1 Feb 2013 09:41:36 GMT
Dan Fante says:
Very subtle.

Posted on 1 Feb 2013 10:36:35 GMT
easytiger says:
As spin says you are definitely on your own. It's even worse now. With the EU arrest warrant, you can be blissfully unaware, sitting in your gaff having a cup of tea, when our plods come and arrest you and send you to Greece or somewhere on some charge or other where you will sit for months in jail awaiting a trial which will be conducted in greek. And don't even start on the US-UK extradition treaty. Back in early 80's when I started working abroad I got banged up in southern Libya on charges trumped up by a driver I sacked. My BRITISH passport got me out, no kidding. Now they just laugh at you, the same passport as the spanish, portuguese and greeks.

Posted on 1 Feb 2013 10:45:23 GMT
[Deleted by the author on 1 Feb 2013 10:45:31 GMT]

Posted on 1 Feb 2013 11:02:22 GMT
Roma says:
What about a situation where human rights are involved? What if someone visits a country where homosexuality is illegal but admits he is to someone who subsequently reports. Suppose, although he admits he is h/s but insists he has not engaged in sex in that country, he is sentenced to death, should the government provide assistance? Is a human right only a right in those countries that have signed up to it or should a citizen expect its country to uphold that right wherever you are. Please the issue is not what you think of homosexuality.

In reply to an earlier post on 1 Feb 2013 15:29:21 GMT
[Deleted by Amazon on 8 Mar 2013 08:06:03 GMT]

Posted on 3 Feb 2013 08:49:30 GMT
Last edited by the author on 3 Feb 2013 13:23:17 GMT
Ian says:
"judges at Denpasar District Court said there were no mitigating circumstances and the defendant did not appear to care about the consequences of her actions.
They said Sandiford had damaged the image of Bali as a tourism destination" BBC

The judges seem to be under the impression that her execution by firing squad will somehow reverse the damage she has done to Bali's reputation as a tourist destination. Perhaps her best hope of avoiding the death penalty will be adverse publicity. (Or is it just me that finds execution by any means rather distasteful and not likely to make me look more favourably on a country that uses it as a potential tourist destination?)

Posted on 3 Feb 2013 10:22:38 GMT
Last edited by the author on 3 Feb 2013 10:42:36 GMT
I'd still go to Bali - but maybe then that's because I have no interest in drug smuggling or breaking the law while there.
The only people who will be bothered are those who are in the same line of 'business' - your average tourist won't be at risk, and therefore not likely to be affected nor care about the execution of a criminal.

"is it just me that finds execution by any means rather distasteful and not likely to make me look more favourably on a country that uses it as a potential tourist destination"

Would you not go to the USA then on that principle ? Or China, Vietnam, Japan, Egypt, Kenya, Morocco, Tunisia, a fair chunk of the Caribbean and Americas, India, Sri Lanka ... All popular tourist destinations that still have the death penalty (and carry it out)

Posted on 3 Feb 2013 13:03:44 GMT
Well, at least she knows not to do it again.
In respect of being refused financial aid, she was smuggling drugs, did she have the british economy or people in mind when she was doing it? Or was it because of her own greed? Do we as a nation condone drug smuggling ourselves? Is it not a punishable crime in this country?

As the old saying goes, if you can't do the time....

In reply to an earlier post on 3 Feb 2013 13:27:52 GMT
Ian says:
I wouldn't refuse to travel to those countries, but when choosing a holiday destination there are many factors which come into play. Amongst those are how safe it is, so dealing effectively with drug dealers and smugglers will certainly promote tourism but the presence of a death penalty does noting to reassure me. How much do you trust the judicial system in most of those countries you just listed? The UK's is supposedly one of the better ones and I don't have complete faith in that.

In reply to an earlier post on 3 Feb 2013 13:37:36 GMT
*Well, at least she can not do it again ;)

In reply to an earlier post on 3 Feb 2013 13:41:23 GMT
Whether or not a country has the death penalty doesn't factor in my decision to travel at all as I know I am not going there to do anything illegal, so it makes no difference to me.
I'd trust Japan's - the rest will likely be more affected by culture, politics and money. Ahh corruption in the third world what a stereotype I'm making ;) I don't trust the UK's though, I think it's pretty appallingly bad in general ...

In reply to an earlier post on 3 Feb 2013 14:15:37 GMT
Ian says:
"corruption in the third world what a stereotype I'm making"

Not at all, I'm assuming you're counting the US system as one you wouldn't trust.

I've already booked my next holiday - in Texas, the death-penalty capital of the US (it's not a factor that attracted me to the location, but nor was it enough to put me off visiting relatives there).

In reply to an earlier post on 3 Feb 2013 14:46:55 GMT
Roma says:
I m totally against the death penalty but don t factor this into my decision making when choosing a holiday destination.

I remember on many an occasion when as a teenager my friends and I being approached by other holidaymakers asking us if we had bought our quota of cigarettes and if not would we carry their excess through customs for them. Being quite savvy about the inherent dangers we would always refuse.It would be so easy for a helpful, unsuspecting young girl to oblige and find herself arrested for smuggling. I think/hope that despite any conviction the gov would help in the case where they thought the conviction unsafe.

Can t remember who said but one poster suggested Japanese judicial system is more trustworthy. Don t know anything about it but be interested in knowing in what ways you regard it as better.

Posted on 3 Feb 2013 20:53:08 GMT
Last edited by the author on 3 Feb 2013 21:51:46 GMT
Spin says:
UK citizens are up in arms about foreigners coming to their nation and breaking their laws. They demand that their justice be served. Yet when a UK citizen breaks a law overseas, they express shock at that nations presumption that a UK citizen could be a criminal and judged according to the laws of that nation..

In reply to an earlier post on 3 Feb 2013 21:47:30 GMT
[Deleted by the author on 3 Feb 2013 21:48:16 GMT]

In reply to an earlier post on 4 Feb 2013 10:18:34 GMT
Dan Fante says:
Yes, I must admit that I did find that bit about concern for the image of the place whilst sentencing a foreigner to death to be a bit of an odd statement.

In reply to an earlier post on 4 Feb 2013 10:24:50 GMT
Last edited by the author on 28 Aug 2013 10:02:00 BDT
Dan Fante says:
I think that's strawman stuff to be honest. Putting aside the massive generalisations in your post I don't think (to use a stereotype) that the average 'prison's too good for them' 'hang 'em high' 'bloody foreigners' type will, at the same time, be expressing sympathy for a cocaine smuggler sentence to death in Indonesia, do you?

Posted on 27 Aug 2013 20:32:51 BDT
JD says:
I think we're all sitting on very high moral horses up here and need to have some heart. While you all lock her up and throw her to the foreign firing squad I'm going to try and remind yous of a few things here. Not everybody's as smart, sensible and priveleged as yourselves. This woman has not been fairly tried or represented. She's somebody's mother, someone's grandmother. Yes she did a stupid thing but this is not the answer. She's one of your kin. This woman was a pawn in a much bigger game - those behind the game itself have received much lighter sentences. It isn't justice. This is shameful, cruel and obvious scapegoating.

Posted on 27 Aug 2013 23:04:50 BDT
Can't we send in SAS snatch squads to rescue them?

In reply to an earlier post on 28 Aug 2013 09:01:49 BDT
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Discussion in:  politics discussion forum
Participants:  15
Total posts:  36
Initial post:  31 Jan 2013
Latest post:  2 Sep 2013

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