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Can Israels policy of killing civilians along with thier Hamas targets really be considered as "self defence" and in moral opposition to the Hamas attempts to kill civilians?


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Showing 126-150 of 241 posts in this discussion
In reply to an earlier post on 21 Nov 2012 16:02:29 GMT
J. D. Hearn says:
ok

In reply to an earlier post on 21 Nov 2012 16:04:13 GMT
Spin says:
Dan: Turkey wants to join the EU so it is a little bit of political and moral turmoil at the moment. If Turkey gives up rights to Cyprus (and I do not claim that it should, in fact, do so) then we may consider it as a serious contributor to the debate concerning occupied territories..

In reply to an earlier post on 21 Nov 2012 16:07:52 GMT
Pipkin says:
>.The reason that there are, unfortunately, civilian casualties in the attacks on the terrorist bases of Gaza is that the Hamas stores its weapons, establishes it rocket launchers, in residential areas,<
Would that be the same as the GTA's sited on top of civilian buildings during our Olympics then?

>The most reasonable interpretation of such figures is that Israel does not target innocent civilians and indeed takes as many precautions as it can not to harm any civilians, though, as happens in every ''military conflict'' the pilots do not always succeed in preventing civilan casualties.<

This is not a MILITARY CONFLICT the Palestinians do not have an Army or Equipment other than a few rockets. Show me evidence of their army....and as for not targetting civilians... why did they shoot a little lad playing football... what was he kicking a bomb?
Please open you eyes....

It was a time of great and exalting excitement.......
The country was up in arms, the war was on, in every breast burned the holy fire of patriotism; the drums were beating, the bands playing, the toy pistols popping, the bunched firecrackers hissing and spluttering; on every hand and far down the receding and fading spread of roofs and balconies a fluttering wilderness of flags flashed in the sun; daily the young volunteers marched down the wide avenue gay and fine in their new uniforms, the proud fathers and mothers and sisters and sweethearts cheering them with voices choked with happy emotion as they swung by; nightly the packed mass meetings listened, panting, to patriot oratory which stirred the deepest deeps of their hearts, and which they interrupted at briefest intervals with cyclones of applause, the tears running down their cheeks the while; in the churches the pastors preached devotion to flag and country, and invoked the God of Battles beseeching his aid in our good cause in outpourings of fervid eloquence which moved every listener. It was indeed a glad and gracious time, and the half dozen rash spirits that ventured to disapprove of the war and cast a doubt upon its righteousness straightway got such a stern and angry warning that for their personal safety's sake they quickly shrank out of sight and offended no more in that way.

Sunday morning came - next day the battalions would leave for the front; the church was filled; the volunteers were there, their young faces alight with martial dreams - visions of the stern advance, the gathering momentum, the rushing charge, the flashing sabers, the flight of the foe, the tumult, the enveloping smoke, the fierce pursuit, the surrender! Then home from the war, bronzed heroes, welcomed, adored, submerged in golden seas of glory! With the volunteers sat their dear ones, proud, happy, and envied by the neighbors and friends who had no sons and brothers to send forth to the field of honor, there to win for the flag, or, failing, die the noblest of noble deaths.
The service proceeded; a war chapter from the Old Testament was read; the first prayer was said; it was followed by an organ burst that shook the building, and with one impulse the house rose, with glowing eyes and beating hearts, and poured out that tremendous invocation

God the all-terrible!
Thou who ordainest!
Thunder thy clarion
and lightning thy sword!

Then came the "long" prayer. None could remember the like of it for passionate pleading and moving and beautiful language. The burden of its supplication was, that an ever-merciful and benignant Father of us all would watch over our noble young soldiers, and aid, comfort, and encourage them in their patriotic work; Bless them, shield them in the day of battle and the hour of peril, bear them in His mighty hand, make them strong and confident, invincible in the bloody onset; help them to crush the foe, grant to them and to their flag and country imperishable honor and glory -

An aged stranger entered and moved with slow and noiseless step up the main aisle, his eyes fixed upon the minister, his long body clothed in a robe that reached to his feet, his head bare, his white hair descending in a frothy cataract to his shoulders, his seamy face unnaturally pale, pale even to ghastliness. With all eyes following him and wondering, he made his silent way; without pausing, he ascended to the preacher's side and stood there waiting.
With closed lids the preacher, unconscious of his presence, continued with his moving prayer, and at last finished it with the words, uttered in fervent appeal, "Bless our arms, grant us the victory, O Lord our God, Father and Protector of our land and flag!"

The stranger touched his arm, motioned him to step aside - which the startled minister did - and took his place. During some moments he surveyed the spellbound audience with solemn eyes, in which burned an uncanny light; then in a deep voice he said:

"I come from the Throne - bearing a message from Almighty God!" The words smote the house with a shock; if the stranger perceived it he gave no attention. "He has heard the prayer of His servant your shepherd, and will grant it if such shall be your desire after I, His messenger, shall have explained to you its import - that is to say, its full import. For it is like unto many of the prayers of men, in that it asks for more than he who utters it is aware of - except he pause and think.

"God's servant and yours has prayed his prayer. Has he paused and taken thought? Is it one prayer? No, it is two - one uttered, the other not. Both have reached the ear of Him who heareth all supplications, the spoken and the unspoken.
Ponder this - keep it in mind. If you would beseech a blessing upon yourself, beware! lest without intent you invoke a curse upon a neighbor at the same time. If you pray for the blessing of rain upon your crop which needs it, by that act you are possibly praying for a curse upon some neighbor's crop which may not need rain and can be injured by it.
"You have heard your servant's prayer - the uttered part of it. I am commissioned of God to put into words the other part of it - that part which the pastor - and also you in your hearts - fervently prayed silently, and ignorantly and unthinkingly?
God grant that it was so! You heard these words: 'Grant us the victory, O Lord our God!' That is sufficient. the whole of the uttered prayer is compact into those pregnant words. Elaborations were not necessary.
When you have prayed for victory you have prayed for many unmentioned results which follow victory - must follow it, cannot help but follow it. Upon the listening spirit of God fell also the unspoken part of the prayer. He commandeth me to put it into words. Listen!

"O Lord our Father, our young patriots, idols of our hearts, go forth to battle - be Thou near them! With them - in spirit - we also go forth from the sweet peace of our beloved firesides to smite the foe.

O Lord our God, help us to tear their soldiers to bloody shreds with our shells; help us to cover their smiling fields with the pale forms of their patriot dead; help us to drown the thunder of the guns with the shrieks of their wounded, writhing in pain; help us to lay waste their humble homes with a hurricane of fire; help us to wring the hearts of their unoffending children and widows with unavailing grief; help us to turn them out roofless with their little children to wander unfriended the wastes of their desolated land in rags and hunger and thirst, sports of the sun flames of summer and the icy winds of winter, broken in spirit, worn with travail, imploring Thee for the refuge of the grave and denied it -
For our sakes who adore Thee, Lord, blast their hopes, blight their lives, protract their bitter pilgrimage, make heavy their steps, water their way with their tears, stain the white snow with the blood of their wounded feet!
We ask it, in the spirit of love, of Him Who is the Source of Love, and Who is the ever-faithful refuge and friend of all that are sore beset and seek His aid with humble and contrite hearts.
Amen.

After a pause he then said, "Ye have prayed it; if ye still desire it, speak! The messenger of the Most High waits!"
It was believed afterward that the man was a lunatic, ''because there was no sense in what he said''............................

This is titled ''The War Prayer by Mark Twain'' And in case you didn't know, it is a warning to beware of what you support and wish for, because as you sow you will most definitely reap.

In reply to an earlier post on 21 Nov 2012 16:15:28 GMT
J. D. Hearn says:
"This is not a MILITARY CONFLICT the Palestinians do not have an Army or Equipment other than a few rockets. Show me evidence of their army....and as for not targetting civilians... why did they shoot a little lad playing football... what was he kicking a bomb?
Please open you eyes.... "

I have a feeling your sources are not telling the complete truth. Let's try that 'opening you eyes' thing you mentioned.

Posted on 21 Nov 2012 16:21:33 GMT
Spin says:
The Judaic religion and culture considers it itself to be "above" other cultures. It is "Gods chosen", after all. It is thus the original form of Fascism. Israel is not a state or nation; it is a culture hanging on to the past.

In reply to an earlier post on 21 Nov 2012 16:28:12 GMT
Pipkin says:
Good - post me some information. Thanks.

In reply to an earlier post on 21 Nov 2012 16:34:15 GMT
J. D. Hearn says:
"The Judaic religion and culture considers it itself to be "above" other cultures."

Religion, yes; Culture, no. Well, no more than any other.

"It is "Gods chosen", after all."

Only if you are religious, but then all Abrahamic religions have this element of 'chosen'.

"It is thus the original form of Fascism."

I agree; if you are referring to Abrahamic religions.

"Israel is not a state or nation; it is a culture hanging on to the past."

Not really. Israeli culture is anything but "hanging on to the past". Jewish religion, however, is.

In reply to an earlier post on 21 Nov 2012 16:39:19 GMT
Spin says:
YB: Is not the state of Israel justified by reference to its past existence, before Rome eliminated it? If we can appeal to the past to construct nations and oppress people, why do jews hate Hitler?

In reply to an earlier post on 21 Nov 2012 16:43:22 GMT
J. D. Hearn says:
No. Find it yourself.

I would be interested to know though, if I told you a story about an israeli child killed whilst playing football, would that balance things for you?

In reply to an earlier post on 21 Nov 2012 16:48:16 GMT
Last edited by the author on 21 Nov 2012 17:06:09 GMT
Pipkin says:
Hi K,
But he did refer to this as a 'military conflict' which would indicate armies?

To explain dear... the reason I post pages of information is to save you having to do it..................... and to enable you and others to conduct this discussion in receipt of all the facts...
If I had evidence of a Palestinian Army, to be sure I would post it... but as far as I know they are just rag tag civilians, like you and me, well like me anyway, fighting to keep hold of the little bit they have left.
Did you bother to look at the maps I sent a link of? NO? I guessed as much. :)
Read and learn girl, then you'll be even more intelligent than you already are..

Edit - just found the link for you:
http://www.peterloud.co.uk/palestine/

Regards ... Mx

In reply to an earlier post on 21 Nov 2012 17:12:11 GMT
Pipkin says:
The Palestinian Military: Between Militias and Armies (Google eBook)
Hillel Frish
http://books.google.co.uk/books/about/The_Palestinian_Military.html?id=m2MYLotFwk0C

Taylor & Francis, 2008 - 218 pages
This book analyzes Palestinian attempts to create an organized military force from the period of the Mandate up to the present day.
Beginning with a comparative overview of the relationship between insurgent movements and the quest to build up a standard military, the book looks, first, at how the 1936 revolt galvanized the Palestinian leadership to attempt to create a military. It then goes on to examines other major topics such as: the 1948 failure to create an organized armed force; Palestinian participation in other Arab armed forces; the creation of the PLA; attempts to develop a security apparatus after Oslo; and, finally, the question of security reform and peace-making. The book concludes by identifying the lessons from the Palestinian experience that can be applied in promoting healthy civil-military relations within political entities located in major conflict zones.

In reply to an earlier post on 21 Nov 2012 17:14:15 GMT
Charlieost says:
Thanks YB for your response to gtL. Saves me bothering. :)

In reply to an earlier post on 21 Nov 2012 18:01:42 GMT
eh eh no need for that little dig - I just lose interest about halfway down, staring at the screen gives me sore eyes lol Saying that though I have read all the links so far, bar the one about the voting in of Hamas, which I made halfway.
I understand that he wouldn't want to go back, but it's easy to shout about how things should change and what you would do when you're safe & sound thousands of miles away. And imo the Canadians are in less need of a good teacher, than the Palestinians need good doctors atm.

In reply to an earlier post on 21 Nov 2012 18:30:00 GMT
Last edited by the author on 21 Nov 2012 18:30:21 GMT
Pipkin says:
K o .
I would not have a dig at you; just as you wouldn't have one at me. :0
Seriously though... none of us will ever know what the truth is, about anything our Governments do.... they play their cards so close to their chests, and only allow us to have the minimum of information. And as I said earlier, our media are so biased and bought by their masters that we are stupid enough to believe that every single episode that happens, warrants the same photo... and we believe them? Like we can't tell the difference? Duh!
Take care... Mx

Posted on 21 Nov 2012 18:36:36 GMT
Last edited by the author on 21 Nov 2012 18:37:57 GMT
Pipkin says:
So Clinton demands a ceasefire! We'll see....
Odd how a bomb blew up a bus in Tel Aviv today, just as she was brokering the deal.....
How on earth did he get through the strip search and document search? Where on earth did he get the explosives and hide the bomb?
Lone wolf again?
Bring it on - we'll believe anything
STOP PRESS Hamas didn't claim responsibility.....

In reply to an earlier post on 21 Nov 2012 19:09:53 GMT
Last edited by the author on 21 Nov 2012 19:27:39 GMT
J. D. Hearn says:
"Is not the state of Israel justified by reference to its past existence, before Rome eliminated it?"

Partially; also by continued Jewish presence, the history of its people and neighbours, SINCE around that time. Very little to do with religion or being chosen, keep in mind.

"If we can appeal to the past to construct nations and oppress people, why do jews hate Hitler?"

*Sigh* I am sure it's not because he asked Jews and other non-Teutonic peoples to move over.

In reply to an earlier post on 21 Nov 2012 19:24:54 GMT
J. D. Hearn says:
Don't understand this post.
The freedom fighter certainly didn't stop off at 'Anything to Declare' at border control. Very likely he was a citizen of israel and constructed the bomb within the country. He then got on the bus, left a bag, and got off. The people already on the bus became suspicious (these things are not advertised by the bombers) and promptly got off the bus, just in case. then the explosion - killing no-one - disturbed an afternoon. Surprisingly, the bomber did not blow himself up, which is why it was a relative failure. perhaps he lost his nerve. on the other hand, he is still out there in Tel aviv, being searched for, amid many others waiting for the right time and place to do a similar thing.

In reply to an earlier post on 21 Nov 2012 19:48:49 GMT
J. D. Hearn says:
Are you still seriously posting this source? This person is simply gathering information - much of it half-truths, some of it fabricated and/or embellished, and other parts simply false - on his favourite team and recreating a nonsensical story, that actually starts with "Once upon a time.." by the way.

I could create a website of Israeli deaths and Palestinian-caused atrocities.....I bet that would really confuse you.

Posted on 21 Nov 2012 19:51:44 GMT
"team"? we're dealing with teams here? give me strength

In reply to an earlier post on 21 Nov 2012 19:57:56 GMT
Pipkin says:
Please do... I would hate to be one sided...like some people.

In reply to an earlier post on 21 Nov 2012 20:03:03 GMT
J. D. Hearn says:
Yes, the word was carefully chosen after guessing the mentality of someone who would create such a website. Don't worry, I use my words thoughtfully.

In reply to an earlier post on 21 Nov 2012 20:07:15 GMT
J. D. Hearn says:
You misunderstand. I would not do such a thing because it would be ridiculous and, as you say, one-sided.

In reply to an earlier post on 21 Nov 2012 20:17:06 GMT
Pipkin says:
Hi DRAF,
imo there should never have been need for conflict, if the Isrealis had not dispossessed and squeezed the Palestinians out of their land, and wanted more and more and more... enough is not enough for them.
As Spin says they could have had the Sinai Dessert where their forefathers lived....Plenty of room there to expand and make a green and pleasant land, without the need to kill anyone.

In reply to an earlier post on 21 Nov 2012 20:50:57 GMT
J. D. Hearn says:
Really? Well, there is a lesser claim to this region but I'll alert the Knesset, maybe there's still time, and with no-one to oppose them, should be a cinch, and....oh wait, the Egyptians: one of the arab states that attacked Israel immediately upon its official foundation and long-time friend of the jews. can always ask i guess.

Posted on 21 Nov 2012 21:19:40 GMT
[Deleted by Amazon on 21 Nov 2012 21:33:21 GMT]
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Discussion in:  politics discussion forum
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Total posts:  241
Initial post:  15 Nov 2012
Latest post:  29 Nov 2012

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