Afghanistan

Hi K,
What happened? You woke up?
I agree!!!!!!!!!
Mx

lol I'm not pro-war like everyone seems to think.
And I'm not that daft that I don't realise governments only go to war for gain. =)
We're agreeing again - something must be wrong !! lol

Hi K,
I like it.
Mx

In the Observer today it is reported that the soldier connected with the killings of the civilians in Afghanistan had on a previous tour suffered a traumatic head injury, had lost part of his foot in a firefight during which comrades of his were killed. A blog that his wife set up hoped that due to his injuries that he would be given a non combat posting.

No sane man goes on a rampage and does what happened a week ago. And now he is threatend with the death penalty. I believe that the guilt should lie with whoever was responsible for sending this man back into a combat situation after his previous experiences.

Crazy situation.

Hi Charlie,
I totally agree.... but they should know what they are getting into?
They shouldn't even be there...
The Industrial Military Complex are evil!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Read the link I left above, please.
Mx

Hi Margaret. Deeply absorbed in Galazy Zoo (Hubble telescope findings forum) at the mo and listening to Shpongle on youtube and in a fairly mellow mood after a walk by the lake and a chat with an old friend so will pass on the link above. Thanks for the offer but I think tonight I will bury my head in the sand instead.

Hi Charlie,
Man of many talents.....
You reminded me of the many hours I spent lying outside, freezing my bits off, looking through my Son's telescope.. Did you see Venus and Jupiter last week? Pretty spectacular even though we no longer have the telescope; my Son took it when he got married.
Shpongle? Looks a bit far out for me. Do you have to be under the influence? Or does it remind you of when you were? i think you are still a bit of a hippy at heart, rather like me in my youth.
I can't blame you for burying your head in the sand. I wish I could go back and un know all that I know. But I can't...
The thing we can do, when the time comes, is to vote only for the Independant candidate. That's the only way we can show the Monied 'Elite our disapproval of what they do. Because believe it or not, all the major party candidates are cut from the same cloth, there is nothing to choose between them. Not that it will stop them, but it would make me feel better knowing that I had not voted for the Monied Elite Puppet.
I watched a programme of Irish Folk Music last night and it really lifted me, and took me back to the times of comfort with my Nan, before I became worldly and aware.
Take care my Ostrich freind.
Mx

Until the working class acts to end capitalism, capitalism will provoke wars without end.

The wars against Iraq and Afghanistan have cost an estimated $3 trillion. Iran, with a population of 70 million (more than Iraq plus Afghanistan), would cost as much. War would raise oil prices yet more and cut our incomes, employment and GDP.

I absolutely agree William,
But - how do we act to end Capitalism.....
While ever there are Televisions, Magazines and Media they will continue to sell us useless things that we simply want because the Jones' have them.
The reason people are so discontented, is because in their subconcious they realise that they have been taken for a ride........ all the money they have worked so hard for, has been given to someone else to make them rich - what a joke.... played on all of us.
How many of us have houses stuffed with things we don't actually need or want, and gas guzzling, status symbol cars. I find it so saddening when I hear people 'getting off' on bragging about how much they have, and how many hilidays they will have this year, and how many cars they have. They puff themsleves up with pride and bask in the glory of their greed. when IMO they are nothing more than mentally flawed.

The day the people wake up to this reality, is the day that Capitalism will lose its strangle hold......

So long as the pig's swill fills the trough, it isn't concerned about anything else much.

[Deleted by Amazon on 19 Mar 2012 23:14:25 GMT]

This man chose to go to war, he was a stockbroker at the time of the Twin Towers attack. He went to exact revenge, in anger, he has had plenty of time to get out of the Army once he had done his part. Nothing, absolutely nothing, condones or excuses what he did. He had been drinking, according to his lawyer on CBS interview, "but not much"? He doesn't remember what he did, well a hangover can do that can't it. Perhaps he did it in an attempt to get out of the Army, to be sent home, as so far the US does not seem to have punished any of it's soldiers who have comitted attrocities due to temporary insanity pleas. Many soldiers have witnessed their colleagues being violently killed, and/or have been injured too. The US are now, totally ignoring the victims stories, but very compassionately promoting this soldier as the victim. How many times are the US going to say, this action does not in anyway reflect the behaviour of the vast majority of our troops, when we are constantly hearing of attrocities, where their soldiers are not punished. It's always as a result of the stress of war, temporary insanity, understandable, perhaps their media should also address what the stresses of war do to their "enemies", or how these constant barbaric treatment of civilians succeed in creating thousands more new enemies, let's see them try and make excuses for their "enemy" too. Whilst they are at it, how about some sympathy and sincere apologies to the real victims here.

"he has had plenty of time to get out of the Army once he had done his part"

Obviously, I don't know how the American Army works - but with the British it's not that easy to just sign off. Your chain of command can reject it if they want to keep you, if you haven't done enough time on your contract or if the reasons for wanting to leave aren't good enough. You also can't leave if it's a certain amount of time before you're due deployment, 6 months iirc - and as regiments deploy every 1.5/2 years there's not a lot of time to terminate; especially if someone delays sending off paperwork or accepting an application for whatever reason.

"this action does not in anyway reflect the behaviour of the vast majority of our troops, when we are constantly hearing of attrocities"

Because, at a push, the total number of soldiers involved in these incidents from the US army make up around 0.1% of the total number of troops - that is how they can say it doesn't represent a majority.

"or how these constant barbaric treatment of civilians succeed in creating thousands more new enemies"

What about the enemy who kidnaps and tortures civilian contractors, journalist, missionaries, aid workers etc none of these people are in a position to defend themselves against capture and get abused for months before they are either killed or their government pays enough money to get them back.

"how about some sympathy and sincere apologies to the real victims here"

I'm sure there'll be a payout which is what seems more important than a sincere apology. Look at the Iraqi who was paralysed, he came to Britain to sue the MOD and got £2 million, whereas a soldier paralysed on tour gets at most £400,000. The families of civilians killed 'won' £1 million (for each family) from the government (paid by the taxpayer) a soldier receives £10,000.

This is what it boils down to money, money, money.
The governments go to war for financial gain and money is the apology.

I am not certain now how the process works but when I served in the Royal Australian Air Force { Other Ranks } I was required to swear allegiance to the Governor-General as Commander in Chief.

I was initially required to sign for a 6 year term and was given 90 days from the date I enlisted to decide if I wanted out. After that I was obligated to the full term of enlistment and could then, if I chose, sign on again in increments of three years.

By the by, to provide information on a matter re some Australians demanding we become a republic { which I as a monarchist will not support } and wanting an Australian as Head of State it was declared by the High Court early in the 20th Century that the Governor-General is Australia's Head of State.

Our current Governor-General is an Australian ergo there is nothing further to discuss.

This express title, however, is not in the text of the Australian Constitution.

Kodukoshi: So you think that the total number of soldiers in volved in 'these incidents' (I take it that you mean such as extreme, deranged or wicked incidents) is about 0.1%. Perhaps that's what we hear about, but in war very nasty stuff goes on all the time, on all sides. There are perpetrators on all sides and victims on all sides - and then there's the so-called 'collateral damage'!

War is utterly barbarbaric and should only be resorted to when there is absolutely no realistic alternative available.

If we really want to deal seriously with terrorism we need to deal* with the extremists and their supporters in our own country and send them back to where they belong, without taking any notice of the ludicrous European Court of Human Rights.

*(Not a McArthyesque witch hunt... But we should enable our security forces to act on what they already know)

"we need to deal* with the extremists and their supporters in our own country and send them back to where they belong, without taking any notice of the ludicrous European Court of Human Rights."

Agree with that. Think the Court of Human Rights is an utter farce is some instances - anyone remember the man who knocked down and killed that little girl (no license, no insurance) and it wasn't the first time he'd caused an accident while driving illegally, he was going to be deported but he went to the CofHR and they said he can't be deported because he has a family in Britain - never mind the British family he tore apart when killing their child eh...

Oh and the 0.1% was just a guesstimate based on things that have been in the news e.g. this one man, the group involved in the torture.
There are roughly 90,000 US troops in Afghanistan, so 0.1% makes it 90 people involved in incidents such as these - so even if you rack it up to 4,500 American troops committing such acts then that is still only 5% which is still not the vast majority.
The vast majority imo would have to be well, well over 50% to be considered 'vast' i.e. 70% - and I just don't believe that 45,000 (at the least) or even 63,000 US soldiers are abusing, torturing and maliciously killing civilians for sport.

Absolutely spot on Molly, as always.
Margaret.

So - am I right in believing that 99% of us are against the ''Wars'' in the Middle East?
And are we all aware of the looming war with Iran?
A war being orchestrated by the Media on behalf of the US/UK Government. Media who should be totally ashamed of their part in these dispicable actions. They whip up the frenzy, then have the gaul to stand back and ring their hands at the carnage they have supported, and get a ring side seat to observe!
IMO The grinning ninny Hague has blood on his hands, still not dry from Lybia, as he positively drools at the thought of the death of all those innocent Iranians who are going to die, so that his freinds the Oil Magnates, Military Industrial Complex, and World Banks can get their pounds of flesh.
Like a clockwork monkey Hague bangs the war drums on cue from Washington....
You would have thought that all the lies and manipulation used in the build up to Iraq and Lybia would still be fresh in the minds of the British public, for them to be fooled again? WRONG!!
You would have thought that by now they should have seen through the ongoing US led deception perpetial War for perpetual Peace. WRONG!!!!
Ultimately, there is no peace in Armageddon.
Do you want a future for your children? Then get out there and protest!!!!
Instead of thinking about it, and hoping someone else will do it for you.

''Stop the Wars.''
http://stopwar.org.uk/index.php/action-a-events/iraq-day-of-action-24-march

Population of Iran 77,891,220
Population of UK 62,698,362
Number of Iranians living in UK 42,494 living in Peace and getting on with their lives.......
The only people wanting any war is the US, UK and France who have the UN by the proverbials..

A wild outburst that, Molly Brown.

I heard an interview given by a Catholic nun, a US citizen, who had gone to El Salvadore to help out. She was captured by US authority figures, then raped and tortured by them until she gave them information. She gave the information. In the interview, this woman who deserves the apologies of all of us, said that when she hears about Abu Graib and that it was a 'one off', she asks herself how people can be so gullible. Do people who think this is a one-off live on the same planet as she does?!

Kodoushi says that these events are 0.1%, or one in every thousand. I would put it, myself, at more like one in every 100,000, if not closer to one in a million amongst soldiers. For instance, in 2007, in Iraq (the bloodiest year) there were no events of this sort among British soldiers, yet there were at least 15,000 soldiers there in total. How many would need to be there before anything happened about which one would disapprove?

The nun I spoke of wasn't captured by regular soldiers. She was captured by intelligence personnel, with orders from the Defence Department (consisting of civilians and members of Congress). These people are the same stock as the SS, or the NKVD. They are 'managers'. They are not soldiers, they are not your barely grown up boys who love their platoon sergeant like a mother, and fondly believe that they are doing good for their home town.

--

The man who apparently went on a rampage obviously had gone insane. The situation he finds himself in is one where the enemy has lost its war, does not wear a uniform, does not present itself for battle, and goes to the lengths of mixing in with civilians so as to escape open confrontation or capture. These 'enemies' mix with civilians on purpose, and rejoice when civilians die since the injury of civilians is always yet one more strike for their own cause. It is a shame that a probably decent person has been driven mad and has caved into the wishes of his enemy and murdered innocents.

--

Your wild outburst is beside the point. When a man is driven so mad that he cannot distinguish between killing children and women on the one hand, and defending himself on the other, then it is time to wonder about metaphysical things rather than about which individual is to blame, and what particular recompense each person deserves.

Dear Mollie: War is horrible, but civil wars and insurgencies are the worst. In Afghanistan, we have both a civil war and insurgency. Due to budget cuts and a volunteer army, the U.S. is constantly sending the same soldiers back to Afghanistan. The soldier accused of the most recent atrocity was on his fourth tour! Imagine, you keep going back and back to fight a war with vague goals and no real end game-- you can be redeployed as an instuctor once all of the regular troops are gone in 2014.

Studies have shown that after 55 days of continuous combat, even the most emotionally stable soldier will break down. Why does the U.S. keep sending its soldiers back to Afghanistan, knowing these statistics?

The fellow who killed 16 civilians in the current atrocity should be tried in Afghanistan by court martial. If guilty, he should be executed in Afghanistan, but even as he is killed, we would know that he wasn't really guilty: it was his government!

So sorry Jason, it must be the pressure of my brain having to cope with the images of babies and children lying in the back of a truck, covered in blood, and half burned. However, thank god my "outburst and rant" did not result in any loss of innocent lives.

I question the reasons you propose to excuse individual responsibility when someone is supposedly serving their country. It is possible that he did this in order to get out of the Army, not as he had hoped with honours, promotions and financial gain. These soldiers are War Criminals, and they should be tried as such. In the same way that Nazi soldiers and their often willing cohorts, who committed attrocities in WW2 and the Holocaust. They should not be tried in US Military Courts Marshall. They should be tried in The Hague, the same as any other war criminal. They would receive a fair trial there, they might even get off scott-free, but at least the World can see that justice is being done. Perhaps it will be the US Military and the US Government that would have to take the blame, if it is they who are deemed to have as you say, have turned "a probably decent person who has been driven mad" into a monster, by his mistreatment by his own country. http://haguejusticeportal.net/index.php?id=30

It is sad, having seen some his wife's blog made public,

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/18/us/wife-of-accused-soldier-kept-blog-on-travails-of-army-life.html?_r=1
A little less than a year ago, in March 2011, Ms. Bales wrote on her blog that her husband had not received a promotion to E-7, sergeant first class. The family was disappointed, she said, "after all of the work Bob has done and all the sacrifices he has made for his love of his country, family and friends."

But Ms. Bales was also relieved, she wrote, because she hoped that the Army might allow the family some autonomy in choosing its next location, after Sergeant Bales had spent years at Joint Base Lewis-McChord in Washington State. She listed her top choices: Germany ("best adventure opportunity!"); Italy ("2nd best adventure opp"); Hawaii ("nuff said"); Kentucky ("we would at least be near Bob's family"); and Georgia ("to be a sniper teacher, not because it is a fun place to live").

"In some of these locations, Sergeant Bales's chances of being deployed to a war zone would probably have been lower. Wherever they went, Ms. Bales said, she hoped to rent out their house in Lake Tapps, Wash., she wrote, "so that we would have it to come back to when our adventure is over."

Ms. Bales's post from March 2011, about the Army promotion, appears to have been the blog's latest entry. In it, she seemed to hint at why she maintained the site in the first place. ..............................

The collection of posts was a "time capsule," she wrote, and "she hoped that her children would one day "enjoy reading about the decisions that Mom and Dad went through during their lives."

"The fellow who killed 16 civilians in the current atrocity should be tried in Afghanistan by court martial. If guilty, he should be executed in Afghanistan"

Are you insane ?

That reasoning stands the test.

SS Captain Amon GOTH was hanged in the camp where he committed his crimes and Lt Colonel HOESS at Auschwitz, where he had been camp commandant.

Israel sent agents to Argentina to kidnap Adolf EICHMANN and the Jews then unlawfully prosecuted him when he had committed no crime within the frontiers of Israel, a nation that did not exist until 1948. If EICHMANN was to face trial it should have been in one of the nations of Europe - his trial in Jerusalem was a criminal act and his execution judicial murder.

Jason writes, "it is time to wonder about metaphysical things".
No, it's time to call for getting all NATO troops out of Afghanistan, so that we no longer are responsible for atrocities committed in our name.
So long as we keep troops there, they will get killed, and they will kill innocent Afghan people.
And so it's our fault!