The norway massacre: the right shows its true colours.

Creepy: The "National Socialists" (nazis) only used the term "socialist in their title because at the time "socialism was the trend and a means of getting votes. Nazism has nothing to do with socialism. Its title reveals its dishonesty...

Clue is in the title 'National Socialism'. I haven't claimed otherwise, so try again.
The Nazis and BNP are about as far right wing as you can get and you can have right wing socialism you know ?

I'm sure you like to believe that

Kod: So you believe in the "socialist" aspect of Nazism, rather than the "National" aspect. Go for it, dude! Convince us that Nazism is a "social" politic.....

Creeepy; One believes according to ones experience. A lack of experience does not give one the right to dictate to others..

Allow me to address my critics:

1. America's involvement in WW1, WW2, Korea, Vietnam, Bosnia, Libya and the like were not necessary for its security, and the Democrats entangled the US in all these foreign conflicts. With regard to WW2, the US did not have to impose a devastating oil embargo on Japan. It could easily have forged an alliance with Japan against the Chinese Communists and possibly even Chiang Kai-Shek, both of whom killed far more of their own people than the Japanese ever did. Would this have been justified? Hard to say, given that the Japanese certainly were expansionist and genocidal-but in exchange for a more moderate Japan and a non-Communist China/Korea/Indochina, such a deal would have been worth it. Naturally, the Japanese reliance on American oil posed a difficult question to policy makers, because if America kept giving them the oil they needed, Noam Chomsky would today condemn America as complicit in enabling the massacre of millions of Chinese. Instead, Chomsky praises Imperial Japan for "saving maybe tens of millions of lives" (Interview, International Socialist Review, September-October 2002). How exactly he arrived at that calculation is anyone's guess, but given other delusional claims from Chomsky (and I could go on about Cambodia, among other genocide denials); I imagine it can be dismissed as more propaganda from "the world's leading intellectual." I will say that once the US was attacked, it had every right to wage total war against Japan, and the use of the atom bomb must rank among the most profoundly moral acts of history-not because it saved the lives of millions of Asians, though it did, but because it saved the lives of thousands of Americans and epitomizes the virtue of self-defense. No coincidence that the result was the most benevolent turnaround of an entire nation, ever.

2. I'm surprised to hear someone claim that you cannot be a religious conservative and an economic liberal. If you've ever taken a class in political science, surely you would know that there are four types of people? Pure conservatives and pure liberals (social and economic advocates of conservatism/liberalism), libertarians (socially liberal, economically conservative), and populists (socially conservative, economically liberal). Hitler was, obviously, a populist; and the name National Socialist could hardly be clearer on the matter. Did Hitler cut taxes, reduce government controls, advocate for laissez-faire? I think not!

3. "You can have right-wing Socialism, too." This is where labels become meaningless. Right, left, who cares? I oppose all forms of Socialism, whether they are fascist or communist. I support Capitalism. The "Left" apparently is not prepared to say the same. I never hear the term "rabid anti-Nazi" but I hear the term "rabid anti-Communist" all the time. You mustn't be more than moderately, mildly, or tepidly anti-Communist, lest you appear "rabid."

4. Ha! The leftists who kill "are insane." However, the right-wingers who kill are all aware of what they're doing, right?

5. I'm sorry if you don't know the story of Jonestown--but suffice it to say that Jimmy Carter and Harvey Milk loved Jim Jones, Jones was an avid follower of Stalin and Mao who read Soviet press releases as propaganda and talked with Soviet officials, and the cult got great press for its soup kitchens and racially diverse group of followers-and Jones killed hundreds in the name of his ideology. The Soviets even made a report denying the massacre, claiming it was orchestrated by the CIA (with possible FBI and US Post Office involvement). Milk's letter to Carter reminds me of Chomsky's former admiration of Pol Pot and continued obfuscations on the Khmer Rouge.

6. Heidegger never apologized for supporting Hitler. W.E.B. Du Bois, the black American Socialist, praised Hitler, saying in 1937 that "Germany is in some ways more free today than it was under the Weimar Republic." Ezra Pound, who wrote for The Nation, supported the Nazis as well.

7. Fasc-ism means, literally, "group-ism." It is opposed to individualism. Hitler pioneered a "third way" separate from communism and capitalism (which he regarded as Jewish ideologies)-a "mixed economy," with nominal private ownership of property, that could be regulated and expropriated at will to harness the selfish forces of capitalism and channel them towards the service of the "greater good" or the community. Sound familiar? That's exactly what all leftists advocate today, now that communism is dead. Perhaps Hitler was right, and the Holocaust was a screw-up. If you want to defend those economic policies, go ahead, and I won't attack your similarity to Hitler ad hominem.

8. Of course Hitler shut down unions! They can only exist in a capitalist society, though the government should never grant them control over whole industries by forcing workers to join them and businesses to meet their demands. Unions can form and bargain peacefully, but only in a society founded on the principle of individual rights. Hitler ran the economy! He controlled prices and wages, what goods were produced and by whom, and in what quantities. He made the judgment as to what everyone's "fair share" properly was. And workers did have to pay their "fair share," especially when they were needed for the war effort! The communists banned unions for the same reason. The spread of capitalism to China has brought with it the beginning of unionization and some competition, and as such Apple has done more than any other company to improve living conditions in developing countries. Sure, their workers are treated badly by our standards, but far better than they would be working for the state, and improvements are constantly being made to improve their happiness and productivity (including efforts by Apple to form unions and expose corruption). Hundreds of thousands flock to such jobs because the government monopoly is so much more vicious. Total competition and industrialization, and an end to China's fascist government, will be needed for complete reform. You could make any leftist dictator into a right-winger if all they have to do is bust unions, kill non-white people, believe in God, or just plain be a "meanie"-and, all of a sudden, they're actually extreme capitalists!

9. Still, far-left union leaders shouldn't commit violent mass murder in support of their goals, as has occurred many times in the past-see, for example, the killing of dozens of "scabs" by the United Mine Workers of Herrin, Illinois in 1922.

10. Capitalism is a radical system. To whatever extent it has existed (and it can never be completely stamped out), capitalism has resulted in all of the human progress that has ever taken place. "Progressives" who want to roll back the clock to the pre-Industrial era, when men lived as serfs on feudal farms (barely eking out sustenance), are anything but advocates of progress. And what is a "conservative"? He who supports the status quo--whether it is Christian or Islamic, peaceful or warmongering, communist or capitalist, tolerant or intolerant? So, a "conservative" can stand for any number of things at any number of times in any number of places? I'm not a conservative. I'm a radical for capitalism. It's not that communism and fascism are theoretically on the opposite ends of the spectrum, and yet expose the sham of partisanship by being "so similar in practice." They are similar in practice because they are similar in theory. Marxism is evil in theory, and must be an invalid theory if it doesn't work in practice. Socialism only "works in theory" for cockroaches or ants that serve their queen-it doesn't work for humans, because humans have minds.

IMO, this is a tragic concequence of mental illness - the man is MAD, and in his demented state became obsessed with absurd right-wing ideas (he could just as easily have latched on to left-wing ideas or some extreme version of any religion, such as Islam, with the same results).

What really impresses me, is the way that Norway has dealt with the matter - Their DIGNITY and understanding.. This is so far from the twisted thinking seen from extremists.. I think about the knee-jerk reactions from other nations to similar events (America,France,U.K) and Norway shines out as a beacon of sanity in this knee-jerk world.

This makes even less sense. If the BNP and the Nazis are the right, what is the left? To claim that national socialism is somehow the opposite of communism is frankly bizarre at best. If we're putting something other than communism as the extreme left it would help to know what it is.

From your comment it is clear you have not read Mr Breivik's 'Testament' published on the internet just prior to his attack Mr Mundell. As to the Norwegian Government's "DIGNITY and understanding"? they immediately resorted to the Stalinist tactic of trying to get him certified insane so as to avoid the embarrassment of a public trial!!! The existence of possibly millions around the world who had already read/understood this justification/explanation by Anders Breivik forstalled certification however, and Mr Breivik is now getting a public trial. As to the Left/Right wing political labels, in this case these are just unhelpfull media tags; if you read what he has to say you'll soon realise the racial survival of his own Aryan/Nordic people in the face of politically orchestrated mass Third World immigration is what motivated Mr Breivik NOT 'politics' as such. You may/may not agree with the current 'melting pot' racial doctrine, but to disagree with prevailing political opinion does not automatically make the dissenter 'insane', any more than disagreeing with apartheid made Nelson Mandela insane.

Linda: there is great difference between Fascism and Nazism. The former is a political and economic ideology devoid of personal prejudices and biased generalisations.; the latter is simply thuggery based on ignorance, prejudice and hatred, devoid of politics or economics.

Bit like Marxism then.

Easy: How so?

"there is great difference between Fascism and Nazism"

Only if you are using the word differently to everyone else.

"fascism: a governmental system led by a dictator having complete power, forcibly suppressing opposition and criticism, regimenting all industry, commerce, etc., and emphasizing an aggressive nationalism and often racism."

Sounds prejudiced, biased, thuggish, ignorant, and hateful to me.

<< it is clear you have not read Mr Breivik's 'Testament' published on the internet >>

Sorry, but his "testament" consists ENTIRELY of the ravings of a certifiable lunatic - there is not one thing he said which is in any way cohesive or reasoned - and his actions follow this 'scrambled brain' in their irrationality.. The only thing which gives the ILLUSION of any sanity is the organization and execution of his actions, but these functions are functions orchestrated by different areas in the brain anyway.

<<they immediately resorted to the Stalinist tactic of trying to get him certified insane so as to avoid the embarressment of a public trial!!!>>

Giving Breivik a public trial (rather than committing him directly to a mental institution) was, IMO, possibly the only mistake the Norwegians made - Everything Breivik said and did conforms absolutely to the checklist for his mental illness.. It was probably only the remote possibility that he had knowledge of this list and was deliberately acting so as to fit the requirements and thereby avoid prosecution which caused him to be put on trial.

Embarrassment? The only possible source of "embarrassment" is that he was put on trial when he is so obviously mentally ill - Any sane person (whether of "left" or "right" persuasion) who reads his rantings and rationally evaluates his actions must conclude that Breivik has not been 'of sound mind' for an extremely long time - perhaps the fact that someone can be so ill and for this to go unnoticed and untreated for such a long time could be another source of "embarrassment" .

<< if you read what he has to say you'll soon realise the racial survival of his own Aryan/Nordic people in the face of politically orchestrated mass Third World immigration is what motivated Mr Breivik >>

Anyone who has delusions about becoming Norway's monarch, and who thinks that "racial survival of his own Aryan/Nordic people" can be achieved by murdering young Norwegians who do not share his views, is OBVIOUSLY and dangerously MAD.

<<to disagree with prevailing political opinion does not automatically make the dissenter 'insane'>>

I agree - but that is not what shows that Breivik is insane - it is his obsessive rambling communication combined with his actions which clearly indicate severe mental illness - and I would say this regardless of whether he was "left" or "right", communist or facist.

<<any more than disagreeing with apartheid made Nelson Mandela insane>>

As someone who was imprisoned briefly in S.A. for expressing anti-apartheid views, I can say that there is no possible comparison - People should be free to have their views, and free to express their views - a line is crossed when violent physical actions are taken against people... Sometimes this line must be crossed - but, when it is, these actions must be seen to be "sane" - If the ANC had gone about killing journalists or nurses, then the sanity of the leaders would have been in question.. Just as the sanity of Mugabe is, IMO, severely in question.

I disagree with the implication carried in the title of this discussion [[ The right shows its true colours ]] - IMO, this has nothing to do with "right" or "left" or the agendas of either "side" ... This whole issue pivots on one stark fact - the fact that we are ALL a `product' of everything which has gone into our lives and development, and that, if our brain is "faulty" we can, quite literally, be on a different `planet' and experience completely different reality to others. It could be argued that "mental illness" is a continuum - that there is no "defining line" separating "sane" from "insane".. But, wherever one chooses to place this "line", Breivik is on the INSANE side!

Excellent post, F. Mundell.

As for Spin's remark that fascism is a rational, logical, and tolerant system--that really is the only thing an intellectually honest modern-day economic leftist could say, so he should be applauded for his honesty and consistency. But he's wrong to assert that Nazism was a perversion of the fascist ideal. Fascists, by definition, put the group above the individual. And, by definition, they hold that human interests are fundamentally incompatible--that the rich exploit the poor--that the success of some is the failure of others--that one must kill to live. Whereas the communists focused on class conflict, the fascists emphasized an economic conflict of interest between nations and racial groups. All races and nations (like all individuals and classes) are parasites, according to fascism: They only consume resources. The fascists do not regard humans as productive; to the contrary, there is only a limited amount of wealth in existence, and men must fight for their equal share of it. In this contest for limited resources, might literally makes right. What is morally good is the interest of the race and the nation, which can only be advanced through the sacrifice of other groups. Any number of individuals can and should be sacrificed for the collective "greater good," and the most vicious and brutal methods of enslaving other nations are the most moral ways of "benefitting" the race. Indeed, this conflict will result in the extermination of morally unfit groups and the continual evolution of human society, the source of all that is good.

Is this fallacious? Of course, because the vast wealth created by capitalism puts the lie to their claim that humans are locked in violent conflict over limited resources. This is illustrated by the fact that the Nazis caused the pointless deaths of millions of Germans, but is just as clear when one considers all of the medical and technological advances that could have been achieved by the Jews they killed. Moreover, one must never accept the premise that majority rules, that pure democracy is just, that individuals must subordinate their judgment to the government on behalf of the community. Hitler was democratically elected, after all.

A pure republic is the only just form of government, for in a democracy the minority has no guarantee of their rights.

Many will say that Hitler had the right idea; he just killed the wrong people. Or that Mussolini and Franco were great men. Or that economic leftism is valid. But the reason why no government, including the Nazi regime, has ever been able to compel the sacrifice of the individual to the group and achieve a positive result is precisely because there is no conflict of interest between them. Humans do not need to kill each other to survive; self-defense is a virtue because nobody has any rational reason to threaten you. A rising tide lifts all boats.

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Mr Mundell, in reply to your repeated claims of Mr Breivik's insanity I would ask that you illustrate exactly what in his:- "2083 - A European Declaration of Independence." causes you to disagree so strongly with the conclusion of the interogating Norwegian police/state psychiatrists, who declared him undoubtedly sane?

Subject: The Islamisation of Western Europe and the status of the European Resistance Movements
Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2011 14:08:50 +0200


Western European patriot,

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4. And covering all, highly relevant topics including solutions and strategies for all of the 8 different political fronts



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"Anyone who has delusions about becoming Norway's monarch, and who thinks that "racial survival of his own Aryan/Nordic people" can be achieved by murdering young Norwegians who do not share his views, is OBVIOUSLY and dangerously MAD."

Quoted for truth.

Where exactly does he say he wants to be the King of Norway Mr Williams? I am unable to find it.

Why shouldn't we kill people better than us? You condemn everyone who disagrees with you... But refrain from removing the cause of this worlds problems...What is your problem? Cowardoce?uncertainty? Or perhaps alack of experience nd education.... (Excuse me, I notice a laser on my chest.....)

Whether he is bad, mad or both he is a dangerous mass murderer who needs locking away in the interests of the many innocents he has killed, the grief caused to their families and friends and to prevent him from doing any more harm.

<< Whether he is bad, mad or both he is a dangerous mass murderer who needs locking away in the interests of the many innocents he has killed, the grief caused to their families and friends and to prevent him from doing any more harm. >>

Agreed.

It is sad that we tend to align ourselves in groups which calcify our ideas and thoughts - I do not believe the "problem" is that we have different ideas - In fact, I see this as essential for our development.. There ARE valid arguments from both the "left" and the "right", and if we were not so afraid to see validity in some of the ideas we reject, and if we were able to embrace / adapt ideas from the "other side" we would be more likely to find ways to accomodate each other and find solutions which would be of benefit to everyone.

I see the whole issue (problem) as being that of extremism and obsession - religion is fine, it serves useful social functions and gives purpose and comfort to many - it is only extremism and fundamentalist interpretation of "holy scripts" which makes religion dangerous.. Likewise with "left wing" and "right wing" biases and ideas - discuss them, think about them, implement them in a sane way, and all is fine... Get extreme about them, and one becomes obsessive and dangerous.

If you look at humanity in the world, and factor in the incredible speed at which our technological evolution has progressed, and how our social evolution has lagged, it would be surprising if we did not have the kind of turmoil we see today - our technological advances have always been ahead of our social development, and this has always caused problems - but the last 100 years have seen such massive change that no organism could keep up with the pace - our brain, although 'plastic', has an 'operating system' which does not change as rapidly as the changes we have implemented. Just the introduction of the internet and the resulting social networking over the last 20 years is an absolutely massive change to our "environment" - and perhaps we are starting to see the tiny tip of the massive iceberg created by these recent changes.

Reply to Maria.

Whils't serving as a young soldier some 40+ years ago, I once shovelled the blackened remains of fellow British citizens into body-bags; this unpleasant duty left me with the deep conviction that any State's first duty is the protection of all it's citizenry from murderous attack. Thus I completely agree with your statement that Mr Breivik is:- "a dangerous mass murderer who needs locking away". Personally I would go further, obeying the Biblical/Koranic instructions to:- 'Take an eye for an eye and a life for a life." in all cases of premeditated murder irrespective of any supposed cause/reason the murderer might use to justify his murderous activity.

What I totally disagree with is the recent Media trend toward demonifying the incident even as the Legal Establishment apply selective judgement and sometimes even allow the murderer to walk free; depending on the cause/reason the murderer acted on behalf of.

Examples of this follow:-

1. Very many Islamic terrorist organisations (some shown below) are now based in London. Despite being clearly aware that numerous members of these organisations have committed appalling terrorist outrages, the Liberal/Socialist establishment now governing Britain openly provides moral/financial support and legal protection from extradition of these known killers even to civilised Western countries such as Australia, India and America.

Abu Nidal Organization
Abu Sayyaf Group
Al-Aqsa e.V.
Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade
Al-Badr
al-Gama'a al-Islamiyya
Al Ghurabaa
al-Haramain Foundation
Al Ittihad Al Islamia
al-Qaeda
al-Qaeda in Iraq
al-Qaeda Organization in the Arabian Peninsula
al-Qaeda Organization in the Islamic Maghreb
Al-Shabaab
All Tripura Tiger Force
Ansar al-Islam
Ansar al-Sunna
Armed Islamic Group
Asbat al-Ansar
Aum Shinrikyo
Babbar Khalsa
Babbar Khalsa International

2. Ex-IRA? terrorist Gerry Adams (Irish: Gearóid Mac Ádhaimh; born 6 October, 1948) is now an Irish Republican politician and abstentionist Westminster Member of Parliament for Belfast West. Although Adams has always claimed that he was "interned" at the time of her murder, the London Daily Telegraph states clearly that Gerry Adams was responsible for the execution of Mrs. Jean McConville; a Belfast-born mother of 10 who was abducted from her home, killed and secretly buried by the Provisional Irish Republican Army (IRA) in or around Christmas of 1972. Adams was "very much at large at the time," insists journalist Ed Moloney in his new book A Secret History of the IRA. Jean McConville, a Protestant, married a Catholic and raised a family of 10 children with him in Belfast before becoming a widow in the early 1970s. Shortly before the murder of Mrs. McConville, the IRA had warned the widow to stop cooperating with British Army units trying to uproot the terrorist group. After she continued to cooperate with anti-IRA efforts, McConville became one of 10 civilians in Belfast murdered and secretly buried by the "Unknowns," a secret cell within the IRA set up by Adams to carry out special tasks. Adams became the commander of the Provisional IRA in November 1972, a month before Jean McConville disappeared. "Whether, as alleged by one well-informed source, or not the order was given by Adams himself, it was inconceivable that such an order would have been issued without his knowledge," writes Moloney.

Che Guevara, Yasir Arafat, Nelson Mandela, Gerry Adams and many more such murderous worthies are all regarded as "statesman and/or heros" by many amongs't our current leaders; the reason these killers are so frequently honoured with nonsensical Peace Prize's etc..... by the modern Liberal establishment.

Erected in the Victorian era, the 'Blind Justice' statue which crowns the dome of the Old Bailey courthouse is depicted as a blindfolded woman, with a set of scales in one hand and the sword of retribution in the other. The intention of our Victorian fore-fathers was to demonstrate that true justice must be completely impartial, free from political, financial influence or public hysteria. Sadly the standards of our own era now fall woefully short of those Victorian ideals and the Western World is very much the poorer for it.

I'm still waiting for an answer, Bradbury.

So I'll ask again.

Are you a holocaust denier?

Why did we not let Hitler win the war? It would have made Amazon discussions so much easier...