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Should prisoners have the right to vote?


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Showing 51-69 of 69 posts in this discussion
Posted on 23 Nov 2012 13:10:06 GMT
If an individual has commited a crime where the victim has been deprived of their human rights, I see no problem with stripping the guilty party of their own rights I.E. Rape, murder etc. If a criminal can take away the human rights of another individual, as a society, we should strip them of theirs.

What do you think?

In reply to an earlier post on 23 Nov 2012 13:13:01 GMT
AJ Murray says:
-"AJ, could you perhaps explain the difference between "something that is garnered through your social contract with the state" and the human right in this case which is something which is created by state legislation."

As i understand it the distinction is that your social contract involves rights that can curtailed if you don't follow the rules, such as your liberty and rights to association. There are unalienable human rights which cannot be curtailed such as your rights to belief.

-"Also, you conveniently ignored my point about how it isn't a blanket right that is applied to all prisoners throughout the EU."

I didn't ignore it. It didn't seem to warrant comment - you said that we were alone with Belarus in having the same objections to the decision of the ECHR.

-"The UK's stance differs from the rest of Europe due it banning all prisoners from voting (except those on remand). Other countries have complied with the EU by giving the right to some but not all prisoners. That just goes to show that human rights, or at least the way in which they are applied in reality are not universal, wouldn't you agree?"

Yep i would agree with that. It appears to be the blanket ban that is problematic for the court.

In reply to an earlier post on 23 Nov 2012 13:17:42 GMT
AJ Murray says:
Kodokushi,

There is a declaration of human rights along with a charter for the rghts of children, whilst they may shre common points one is for adults the other for children.

-"So why can't you have a law that denies the vote to criminals, surely that would be respecting the rights of the law-abiders ?"

Well it appears that you can, for some criminals. I suspect the reason that the blanket ban was found to in violation was because it meant that for those who had short-term custodial sentences were being punished differently. What i mean by that is that someone who gets a 1 year sentence when there is a general election being held would be getting a harsher sentence for the same crime being commited during the years when it wasn't.

Posted on 23 Nov 2012 13:19:49 GMT
Last edited by the author on 23 Nov 2012 13:20:27 GMT
Dan Fante says:
What does the right to belief have to do with the right to vote? It's a bit hypocritical introducing that after you had a pop at me for bringing up minimum wage isn't it?
And from what you've said there, AJ. Voting would be a liberty rather than a human right, going by how you've defined it. Given we've established that, in certain circumstances, the right to vote can be removed.
With that in mind, I'm glad we're now, more or less, on the same page ;-)

Posted on 23 Nov 2012 13:23:39 GMT
Spin says:
[Customers don't think this post adds to the discussion. Show post anyway. Show all unhelpful posts.]

In reply to an earlier post on 23 Nov 2012 13:25:19 GMT
AJ Murray says:
^Spinbot talking points number #178329

In reply to an earlier post on 23 Nov 2012 13:28:34 GMT
Last edited by the author on 23 Nov 2012 13:29:08 GMT
AJ Murray says:
-"What does the right to belief have to do with the right to vote? It's a bit hypocritical introducing that after you had a pop at me for bringing up minimum wage isn't it?"

Well since the question was the distinction between human rights and civil liberties, examples are relevent.

-"And from what you've said there, AJ. Voting would be a liberty rather than a human right, going by how you've defined it. Given we've established that, in certain circumstances, the right to vote can be removed."

Apparently so. It appears to be a lot less clear cut than i made out.

-"With that in mind, I'm glad we're now, more or less, on the same page ;-) "

More or less. My instinct is that criminals should have their voting rights removed, but when it comes to human rights i've learned to take a more reasonable view. Just because someone has broken the law doesn't render them damned or beyond protection. Quite often i see comments on these sort of questions owing more to a feeling of vengeance than humanity.

In reply to an earlier post on 23 Nov 2012 13:29:13 GMT
Pendragon says:
Thanks AJ

As I see it the real issue is whether, and if so to what extent (ie which ones), prisoners should be deprived of their human right to vote.

I think this is a genuinely difficult question, as it requires a line to be drawn somewhere (if there is to be a deprivation) and is subjective in nature. Personally, I don't have a view either way - it would not bother me if prisoners were given back the right to vote, equally I can see why a lot of people might think it just for certain categories of prisoners to lose the right.

Storm in a teacup is probably right. What practical difference will it make to give all or some part of another 71,000 odd adults across the UK the right to vote? Less than the cost in time and of litigating and arguing about it.

In reply to an earlier post on 23 Nov 2012 13:30:31 GMT
Spin says:
AJ; The eloquence and logic of your arguments brings a tear to my eye...

Posted on 23 Nov 2012 13:51:30 GMT
Dan Fante says:
That's about the size of it, Pendragon.

Posted on 23 Nov 2012 19:50:41 GMT
O. Thebault says:
No, where does it end, are we going to ban prisons next because being locked up infringes on human rights

The UK is the only nation which follows the EU and EU court of human rights to the letter, everyone else apart from Belgium agrees but does no implement

Posted on 23 Nov 2012 23:22:38 GMT
Caain says:
"No" to the vote whilst imprisoned ... "Yes" vote once time has lapsed after release and person concerned has not "relapsed" within any shape or form.

In reply to an earlier post on 24 Nov 2012 01:15:02 GMT
Last edited by the author on 24 Nov 2012 01:23:49 GMT
ric_mac says:
< You're assuming your conclusion >

I'm expressing my opinion. Logically and morally, I do not believe that individuals who have deliberately transgressed against the laws of society -- and have been proved to have done so -- should be permitted the *privilege* of contributing to the processes of the society they have offended -- *for the duration of their punishment*. Apart from simply asserting `it is a right', what is your argument for the opposite case? Convicts are not only imprisoned for the protection of the rest of society, there is intentionally and categorically an element of punishment involved. I think it is absolutely just that part of that punishment is the temporary withdrawal of the *privilege* of the ballot. Law abiding citizens, by their conformity to acceptable social conduct, should expect the full extension of all of society's privileges. Its withdrawal from offenders demonstrates the censure of society. The *privilege* can be (and is) restored to offenders when their punishment is completed.

< Actually [voting is a human right]. That is why the court of human rights made this decision >

By all means wave the Court of Human Rights' opinion around as much as you like. I note that you make no case as to why you consider the ballot to be a `human right' that cannot be temporarily withdrawn. In any case, the EC of HR does not expressly state that is inappropriate to withhold the ballot from prisoners. It's ruling is that the withholding of the ballot from *all* prisoners, without investigation and discussion by Parliament of the proportionality of, and alternatives to, such an imposition, is not legal. **EDIT** And since the argument from the EC of HR is *not* that the withdrawal of the ballot from prisoners, per se, is a contravention of human rights then surely the ballot is not a 'human right'. If it was, then any and all removal of the ballot would be an offence.

< Liberties differ from human rights, we can curtail one without having to compromise on the other >

Opinion only. Semantics only. Relies on your own definitions. Lacks argument.

Posted on 20 Jun 2013 10:15:07 BDT
Pendragon says:
Following the European Court judgment in May 2012, which required the government to put forward proposals to comply with the ruling, the Ministry of Justice has published a draft voting eligibility (prisoners) bill. A parliamentary joint committee has been set up to consider the bill and will hold its first session of oral evidence today.

Juliet Lyon, director of the Prison Reform Trust, says Britain's politicians should end the blanket ban on sentenced prisoners' voting. Voting in elections should be seen as a normal part of the resettlement and rehabilitation of prisoners, she says.

See http://news.uk.msn.com/socialvoices/change-law-on-voting-for-prisoners

In reply to an earlier post on 20 Jun 2013 11:03:13 BDT
P Roberts says:
Any crime is an anti-society act, therefore one who deliberately commits a crime is acting against that society. Why should such a person who is actively against a society be allowed to participate in leading it by way of voting influence.
Do not MP's who commit a crime loose their right to lead by way of government?
Give a criminal the legal right to influence leadership legitimises criminal leadership by precedence.

In reply to an earlier post on 20 Jun 2013 11:03:16 BDT
P Roberts says:
Any crime is an anti-society act, therefore one who deliberately commits a crime is acting against that society. Why should such a person who is actively against a society be allowed to participate in leading it by way of voting influence.
Do not MP's who commit a crime loose their right to lead by way of government?
Give a criminal the legal right to influence leadership legitimises criminal leadership by precedence.

In reply to an earlier post on 20 Jun 2013 11:15:15 BDT
Pipkin says:
:+// So that's what happened?
Mx

In reply to an earlier post on 20 Jun 2013 11:16:54 BDT
Pipkin says:
Hello AJ,
I am very interested to know who or what you consider the people who are in prison to be?
Misunderstood?

Posted on 20 Jun 2013 14:10:13 BDT
[Deleted by the author on 20 Jun 2013 22:22:55 BDT]
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Discussion in:  politics discussion forum
Participants:  16
Total posts:  69
Initial post:  22 Nov 2012
Latest post:  20 Jun 2013

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