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Joyeux Quatorze Juilliet! / Happy Bastille Day!


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In reply to an earlier post on 15 Jul 2013 21:54:13 BDT
Last edited by the author on 15 Jul 2013 21:57:59 BDT
gille liath says:
There's a little bit more to it than that. You can't build a war machine *only* by killing or deporting people - and of course the Soviet Union would never have 'happened' in the way it did without the contributions of various other countries, especially Nazi Germany. Same goes for the rubble.

I think the lesson really is that Stalin is what you get from a modern totalitarian dictatorship - not a revolution per se. It is possible to have either one without the other. Russia has never known anything but absolutism, and arguably after the revolutionary blip Stalin was really carrying on where the Tsars left off - applying their policies with industrial efficiency.

In reply to an earlier post on 15 Jul 2013 22:06:26 BDT
Anita says:
In any case, building the war machine does not redeem anything. I have no idea what would have happened, if something had/had not happened. I daresay, nobody does. Were it not for Stalin, still no guarantee that the Nazis would have won. Or would have kept their victory for long.

There's nothing good about the Soviet Union. Zilch

In reply to an earlier post on 15 Jul 2013 22:12:37 BDT
Last edited by the author on 15 Jul 2013 22:20:58 BDT
gille liath says:
No, I can't agree with that. They did improve equality and standard of living for ordinary people who less than a century earlier were still serfs; and they were the main ones responsible for defeating the Nazis, which counts for something. And as far as you can guarantee anything in counterfactuals, you can guarantee that without the industrialisation under Stalin they would have been conquered. Even as it was, things came very close.

In reply to an earlier post on 15 Jul 2013 22:29:17 BDT
Anita says:
Following the same logic industrialisation would not have happened without the Nazi attack - ?

I can't agree that if something good comes out of something bad, it makes the bad less bad. It's still bad.

When serfs were dragged to the kolkhozes, it didn't improve their lives. Quite on the contrary, quite for a long time. And, to quote a well-known author, among the equals some are more equal than the others. Very much spot-on...

In reply to an earlier post on 15 Jul 2013 22:33:11 BDT
gille liath says:
Don't follow your reasoning there at all, especially the first line. The rapid industrialisation began in the early 30s, if memory serves.

In reply to an earlier post on 16 Jul 2013 05:29:22 BDT
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In reply to an earlier post on 16 Jul 2013 06:03:46 BDT
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In reply to an earlier post on 16 Jul 2013 13:00:34 BDT
Last edited by the author on 16 Jul 2013 13:01:21 BDT
>>> says:
What went wrong then, Simon? 12 millions represents a distinctly lukewarm 17.18% of the vote in favour of a communist president. Some humiliation for a party which used regularly to garner almost total consent from the voters:

(Election results for legislative body)

1937 CPSU/Stalin - 99.3%
1946 CPSU/Stalin - 99.2%
1954 CPSU/Khrushchev - 99.8%
1962 CPSU/Khrushchev - 99.5%
1970 CPSU/Brezhnev - 99.7%
1979CPSU/Brezhnev - 99.9%
1984 CPSU/Chernenko - 99.9%
1989 CPSU/Gorbachev - 80.0%
2011 CPRF/Zyuganov - 19.19%

(Election results for CPSU and CPRF in Presidential contests)

1990 Ryzhkov - 17.2%
1996 Zyuganov - 40.7%
2000 Zyuganov - 29.5%
2004 Kharitonov - 13.8%
2012 Zyuganov - 17.18%

(edited for typo 13.01)

Posted on 16 Jul 2013 13:17:30 BDT
[Deleted by Amazon on 16 Jul 2013 13:51:12 BDT]

In reply to an earlier post on 16 Jul 2013 14:00:30 BDT
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In reply to an earlier post on 16 Jul 2013 15:52:35 BDT
Last edited by the author on 16 Jul 2013 16:37:17 BDT
>>> says:
I am happy to follow your line, Simon, because it also appears to be true that the 82.82% of the vote that eluded the Leninist bunglers represents many more millions of Russians who rejected the bad old days of communism. Hикогдa большe!

(edit 16.37!)

In reply to an earlier post on 16 Jul 2013 16:01:22 BDT
>>> says:
'...the USSR was the finest nation...'

Incorrect, Simon. The USSR, formed in 1922, was composed of multiple nations:

Russia
Ukraine
Uzbekistan
Kazakhstan
Byelorussia
Azerbaijan
Georgia
Tajikistan
Moldavia
Kirghiz
Lithuania
Turkmenistan
Armenia
Latvia
Estonia

In reply to an earlier post on 16 Jul 2013 16:03:12 BDT
>>> says:
"When serfs were dragged to the kolkhozes, it didn't improve their livest...'

Indeed, Anita, the soviets managed agriculture so badly that some 4-5* millions starved to death in the consequent catastrophe (1932-33). The collective farm system (Sovkhozi and Kolkhozi) carried on performing poorly right up until the disintegration of the USSR. As late as 1979 28% of Soviet agricultural production came from the small plots of private citizens working just 1% of the available arable land (Heller & Nekich, 1986).

In reply to an earlier post on 16 Jul 2013 16:42:28 BDT
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In reply to an earlier post on 16 Jul 2013 16:43:06 BDT
Last edited by the author on 16 Jul 2013 16:43:55 BDT
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In reply to an earlier post on 16 Jul 2013 17:42:43 BDT
Last edited by the author on 16 Jul 2013 18:02:31 BDT
>>> says:
Exactly so , Simon. The United Kingdom, like the defunct Soviet Union, is a multinational state. A multinational state I take to be a sovereign state comprising one or more nations. Here's a leading Marxist -Leninist pointing out the distinction:

"I drink in the first place to the health of the Russian people because it is the most outstanding nation of all the nations forming the Soviet Union."

(JV.Stalin, Victory Toast, 1945)

Edited @18.02 to add Stalin's toast.

In reply to an earlier post on 16 Jul 2013 18:10:38 BDT
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In reply to an earlier post on 16 Jul 2013 18:12:50 BDT
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In reply to an earlier post on 16 Jul 2013 19:16:23 BDT
>>> says:
A nation forming one of the constituent nations of the state known as the United Kingdom.

In reply to an earlier post on 16 Jul 2013 19:17:37 BDT
>>> says:
I've already read the Wikipedia page on 'Nation', thank you Simon.(en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nation)

Posted on 16 Jul 2013 19:40:21 BDT
Last edited by the author on 16 Jul 2013 19:42:10 BDT
for everything you claim founty , Helen turns it back on you in spades.

she's whoopin' your ass, and she's got you in her pocket.

a wise man knows when he's beat. shame you're not that man

In reply to an earlier post on 16 Jul 2013 20:08:46 BDT
Anita says:
Helen - just a short correction. The soviets failed to incorporate Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia in 1922 (yeah, Russia tried to in 1918). Sadly, the occupation went more successfully in 1940

In reply to an earlier post on 16 Jul 2013 21:07:47 BDT
Last edited by the author on 16 Jul 2013 21:08:48 BDT
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In reply to an earlier post on 17 Jul 2013 20:54:31 BDT
>>> says:
Indeed, Anita. The Soviet union was founded in 1922 and added to over the succeeding decades.

In reply to an earlier post on 17 Jul 2013 21:22:08 BDT
Hurraaahhhhhhhhh!
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This discussion

Discussion in:  politics discussion forum
Participants:  12
Total posts:  63
Initial post:  14 Jul 2013
Latest post:  26 Jul 2013

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