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K2 ..... is it a mountain to climb for the Tories?


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In reply to an earlier post on 22 Jun 2012 20:53:29 BDT
You are right, I should have worded that better. I don't have a problem with free enterprise and capitalism, as long as it not to the detrement of others.

The biggest problem we are faced with our governments is that they look after the richest first and then consider average joe last if they have to, when in fact their duty was to look after average joe first.

In reply to an earlier post on 22 Jun 2012 20:58:21 BDT
gille liath says:
But that's the point, mate: capitalism is always to the detriment of somebody. That's not an accident, it's actually the aim of the game. What drives capitalism is people wanting to show they're better than somebody else, by either buying or selling more trash than them. And in order to have the better off, you also have to have the (relatively) worse off.

In reply to an earlier post on 22 Jun 2012 21:03:28 BDT
Hi Dav45

I don't think anyone can blame the companies of keeping money they have been told they can keep.

On an individual level it so much more smaller but everyone who waits 3 months of release date of a newly released DVD in a sense avoid paying some tax but we only think of it as saving money.

The real culprits are those that have and are governing us who tell us the money they take from us is not enough and make up rules and regulations to keep squandering our money.

In reply to an earlier post on 22 Jun 2012 21:05:12 BDT
So is there another name for a system that is conscious of how the money is made?

In reply to an earlier post on 22 Jun 2012 21:32:30 BDT
TomC says:
"The biggest problem we are faced with our governments is that they look after the richest first and then consider average joe last if they have to"

Does this surprise you, when half of them are bought and paid for before they take office, and the other half are seeking a cushy berth when they leave?

The basic unit of government is not the assembly chamber, it's the corporation.

"As long as politics is the shadow cast on society by big business, the attenuation of the shadow will not change the substance."

John Dewey.

In reply to an earlier post on 22 Jun 2012 22:16:46 BDT
C. A. Small says:
Not really, to be practical- if the very rich can find ways of getting around the high tax bracket, they have to pay very clever accountants a lot of money to do so. If the tax bracket is lowered it becomes less attractive to avoid it, ans even less so if the penalties are stiff. So Tax revenue could well go up even though the tax percentage of income is lowered.

An example- vat is at 20%, so it has become more advantageous for builders to do cash jobs saving the customer just over 16% of the bill, but also the revenue are deprived of not just the 16%, but also the builders income tax and NI of the remaining 84% which at 25% would be 21% or at 40% would be 33.5 % so the lost revenue is huge.

Simplifying tax and removing all the tax avoidance schemes especially all the offshore havens (including all the corporate stuff) could generate collossal amounts of income. So although the headlines might look like the wealthy getting wealthier- the reality would be the opposite.

In reply to an earlier post on 22 Jun 2012 22:17:37 BDT
C. A. Small says:
The reality of life is that it is at the dtriment of someone else.

In reply to an earlier post on 22 Jun 2012 23:05:46 BDT
Mr B Tonks says:
Hi KP

If a company can get away with paying as little tax as possible they will do,
The old story used to be that if we taxed companies too heavily they will move abroad and the UK plc will be poorer as a result,
That is exactly what has happened to a large extent and firms such as Amazon have a massive turnover in this country yet contribute little towards tax,
I download recent history books for my Kindle which tend to be on the expensive side and I feel as though the profits Amazon make from these downloads are high. Even if it is the printers that takes the lions share I bet they as well as Amazon are based offshore and consequently the money the consumer has paid is money straight in their pocket rather than a decent proportion being paid in tax towards the infrastructure costs of this country.
When I worked for ASDA we had the same argument - a profitable British company which paid tax to the UK taken over by Walmart and absorbed with the end result of ASDA's huge profits being funnelled back to the US. Sure they pay some tax here and some is ploughed back into shop refurbs/new stores but the bulk of profits end up in Arkanas.
Maybe if we turned it on its head and made companies pay their full quota of tax then individuals may end up paying a tiny fraction of income in tax - like Amazon.

In reply to an earlier post on 23 Jun 2012 08:00:32 BDT
Last edited by the author on 23 Jun 2012 08:07:26 BDT
Molly Brown says:
I thought I heard that woman from the CBI on QT this week say that there is 45 billion tax that goes uncollected in this country, whether that's tax evasion or tax avoidance I am not sure, she didn't specify. As regards this particular scheme, it is clearly fraud imo. So I don't know why it's a problem for HMRC to do something. People are pretending to be someone else, in order to defraud the British Tax system. How it is perfectly legal is a complete mystery to me. If it is then someone on benefits who has above 6.5K limit in savings would legally be able to use this scheme to hide the money?

In reply to an earlier post on 23 Jun 2012 08:04:09 BDT
Last edited by the author on 23 Jun 2012 08:08:53 BDT
Molly Brown says:
Gary Barlow is much worse! He espouses his patriotic fervour for all to see, when infact he is defrauding the country too. That makes him much more of a hypocrite, Carr is so stupid, he is not political, I doubt he even understands the lines that have been written for him by someone else. I gave up watching that so called political satire on C4 after a couple of weeks. They are all bozo's, except for Charlie Booker?

In reply to an earlier post on 23 Jun 2012 08:06:03 BDT
Molly Brown says:
It doesn't have to be like that, we need a form of social capitalism. You can surely make money without having to rip people off, or exploit them.

In reply to an earlier post on 23 Jun 2012 08:11:41 BDT
I'd have said that anyone engaged in tax avoidance was defrauding the country. They gain the benefits of public spending without contributing their fair share. But yes, Barlow is hardly a shining examplar either.

It's Charlie Brooker. He's funny, although I think he's gone a little bit off the boil recently. A bit less bite to his humour now he's gone all domesticated.

In reply to an earlier post on 23 Jun 2012 08:33:57 BDT
Molly Brown says:
"The scheme is understood to work by UK earners "quitting" their job and signing new employment contracts with offshore shell companies. Those companies then "rehire" their new employee back out to the UK but take their earnings. The offshore company then pays their employee a much lower salary but also "loans" them thousands a month. However these loans can be written down as tax liabilities, and so reducing the overall bill to the government."

Now, if that is NOT fraud, clear and simple, then I don't know what is!!

In reply to an earlier post on 23 Jun 2012 09:54:09 BDT
C. A. Small says:
Molloy- that is not how it it works. Everytime HMRC plug a hole, a brilliant ( really they are) accountant will find away around it, which is why we need simplification and a spirit of the law not caselaw.

The fees for this sort of avoidance are huge. Please read up on it, as you have not really understood what is going on.

In reply to an earlier post on 23 Jun 2012 09:55:49 BDT
C. A. Small says:
Molly- no neither he nor anyone on those schemes is defrauding anyone. They are legal. Please get your head round it. They are immoral but legal. Avoidance is legal, evasion is not legal.

In reply to an earlier post on 23 Jun 2012 09:57:47 BDT
C. A. Small says:
Molly it is not fraud. Morally repugnant, yes. But if people really cared all they would have to do is switch from vodaphone in protest at their tax position, and amazon of course!

In reply to an earlier post on 23 Jun 2012 10:28:50 BDT
Mr B Tonks says:
Amazon has got a virtual monopoly though on internet book sales so who would you switch to in order to protest at their tax position?
Sainsbury's have just taken over Anobii so maybe there will be some decent competition from there sooner or later,
When the buses were deregulated in the 80's we were promised competition and lower fares. Arriva operate all the buses where I live now - no rivals, have hardly any competition and charge what they think the public can bear - same as Amazon.

In reply to an earlier post on 23 Jun 2012 12:56:06 BDT
Clive,

While they may not be fraud in the legal sense, I think they are in an actual sense. As I put in my previous post, these people gain the benefits of society without paying into it.

In reply to an earlier post on 23 Jun 2012 13:03:31 BDT
C. A. Small says:
Hi Sam I agree with the moral, but fraud is a legal term and does not apply. To clarify;

Jimmy Carr, Amazon, Vodaphone and the one from Take That are fraudsters - incorrect ( as far as I am aware).

The above are morally repugnant parasites with all the decency and integrity displayed by fraudsters- true.

In reply to an earlier post on 23 Jun 2012 13:04:52 BDT
C. A. Small says:
Dav try your local Waterstones, or good second hand bookshops ( like "Baggins Book bazar" in Rochester.

In reply to an earlier post on 23 Jun 2012 14:21:19 BDT
Mr B Tonks says:
I do try to go Waterstones as I believe it is important to support bookshops as they seem to be an endangered species,
Would be good though if there was one or two other similiar outfits to Amazon on the internet as a bit of competition might see other avenues opened up such as being able to swap books across different Kindle accounts.

In reply to an earlier post on 23 Jun 2012 14:49:32 BDT
David Groom says:
Dave45,

'Would be good though if there was one or two other similiar outfits to Amazon on the internet as a bit of competition might see other avenues opened up such as being able to swap books across different Kindle accounts.'

For plain old fashioned paper books, try Abebooks.com. I've got a good many unusual or rare items off there.

Posted on 23 Jun 2012 15:07:36 BDT
So much judgement....this I trust from people who are totally honest and always have been...

In reply to an earlier post on 24 Jun 2012 09:40:54 BDT
Last edited by the author on 24 Jun 2012 09:42:37 BDT
Molly Brown says:
I do understand what's going on Clive, but there seems an unwillingness for those in power, ie the rich elites to actually do anything about this. Why would they? You previously said that you could not blame David Cameron for the past "indiscretions" of his father in tax avoidance schemes, but as it is morally repugnant, his words, he is happy to be the inheritor of this morally repugnant ill-gotten gains. It's a bit like Al Capone's son (if he had one), inheriting his non-declared income, which HE didn't pay tax on on, and resulted in his final downfall, then for his son going on to lecture others on morals.

I notice this morning, after Cameron's poor judgement in attacking just one individual, it has rather backfired on him, as so many of his statements or remarks do. So, this morning all we are hearing, AGAIN, is about so called "benefit cheats", i.e. young people under 25. He and his party have NO IDEA what some of these kids have to endure at home, there are no jobs for them, but they are going to be punished in order to try and detract from the real "cheats" who he seems unwillingly to condemn, or more importantly, do something about.

In reply to an earlier post on 24 Jun 2012 10:00:34 BDT
C. A. Small says:
Molly- you cannot condemn the rich for fiddling then exclude other people for fiddling benefits.

Likewise if a parent has fiddled the benefits system for years is their child responsible?
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This discussion

Discussion in:  politics discussion forum
Participants:  9
Total posts:  57
Initial post:  22 Jun 2012
Latest post:  24 Jun 2012

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