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Corruption; Should we not follow our comrades in Brazil and near-orient?


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Initial post: 25 Jun 2013 23:03:41 BDT
Spin says:
Our authorities are corrupt and have been for some time. From the media to the churches, from the government to the police, we have been pawns in a huge game of power. When will we stop simply mumbling about injustice and start making changes?

In reply to an earlier post on 26 Jun 2013 00:16:57 BDT
AJ Murray says:
You first.

In reply to an earlier post on 26 Jun 2013 04:09:18 BDT
Spin...personal pronouns?...our and we...not your and you?...strange for ...?????

Posted on 26 Jun 2013 14:04:28 BDT
I Readalot says:
Okay what changes and how? What is the plan? Will those changes really be an improvement? What form of society do you suggest? Who should be in charge? Can you guarantee that those who take over are incorruptible? Whoever is in power will eventually become corrupt it has happened throughout history. The UK isn't too bad when you look at it, in some parts of the world you would be arrested for just posting your comments. Start putting some meat on the bones.

In reply to an earlier post on 26 Jun 2013 14:37:56 BDT
I Readalot...just not the "right" books?...if you did you would know that the changes involve the dissolving of the ego...that's it...nout more needed.

In reply to an earlier post on 26 Jun 2013 15:05:43 BDT
I Readalot says:
Actually I do, Spin is proposing change I would just like a bit more info. It is easy to say we need change but harder to provide details. As for dissolving of the ego, how do you go about that? Besides ego is just a psychoanalytic concept.

In reply to an earlier post on 26 Jun 2013 15:11:52 BDT
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In reply to an earlier post on 26 Jun 2013 15:17:13 BDT
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Posted on 26 Jun 2013 15:39:18 BDT
Last edited by the author on 26 Jun 2013 20:14:07 BDT
Reply to I Readalot.

The second change should be to social security/pensions and 'welfare.

All the intrusive means tested 'benefits' should be abolished and replaced with one 'Citizen Support Allowance' payment, set by the age of the recipient and automatically paid weekly/monthly to every legal British citizen (rich or poor) as an entitlement.

The following figures (shown below) are speculative examples only, used to illustrate the possible graduated payment levels could be made:-
1. Birth to eleven years. 15 per week.
2. Eleven to eighteen years. 25 per week.
3. Eighteen to fifty five years. 35 per week.
4. Fifty five plus years. 55 per week.

Clearly those chosing 'welfare' as a lifestyle would find it difficult at these levels BUT part-time/full-time employment would be an attractive way of suplimenting income as these payments would NOT cease for those in employment; hence every pound earned would make an immediate improvement to the income of the worker. More you worked the more you could spend/save BUT even if idle for years/decades none should starve. State/DHSS intrusion into private affairs such as casual work, personal and or children's savings/investments etc... should also be unnecessary.

Under such a system, the 'Socialist' State with all it's bureaucrats/investigative authorities and policemen, should become an unwelcome memory. With every penny earned your's, to spent as you wish; those who wish to drink the lot may do so, but without medical insurance would reap the reward of their irresponsibility personally; IE: no treatment at the expense of the rest of us. Those who wished to pay for top quality private education could do so, those who wished to 'home school' their children could do so. Etc... etc... etc...

The State would be reduced largely to providing Military Defence and Law and Order.

Elections would be decided largely on the size of the 'Citizen Support Allowance', payment versus the level of taxation imposed on the various items available in the market place. If taxes were set to high sales would fall, immediately highlighting to mistake.

In reply to an earlier post on 26 Jun 2013 16:52:53 BDT
I Readalot says:
Those are changes from the top, that is the government of the day which means that you would need people already in place to propose and support such changes. I am not an economist but I am sure there is someone out there who would immediately spot flaws in what you propose anyway. I suppose the government of the day would never know how much income they would have and you will still need beaurocrats to make the payments. What about the health service, would that all be private? Some people may not earn enough to afford private health care. Would all schooling have to be paid for? This wouldn't stop some people being high earners and others earning peanuts, social inequality would remain but in a different form.

Posted on 26 Jun 2013 17:25:05 BDT
T. S. C. says:
'Spin says:

Our authorities are corrupt and have been for some time. From the media to the churches, from the government to the police, we have been pawns in a huge game of power. When will we stop simply mumbling about injustice and start making changes?'

It's a very good opener Spin, I must admit. But where do we begin? The people in power, the politicians, the very wealthy, the connected, the semi-aristocratics, and those at the top of every institution be it private, government or civil service, obviously do not want anything to change or things would. I'm not saying anything you don't know there however. It's obvious that people always use any form of power for their own ends and very rarely, if ever, for the good of society in general. It's also obvious that people who have power, wealth, high paying positions are very happy to take the wealth, the kudos, the knighthoods and the glory that goes along with the position, but when anything goes wrong none of them ever take responsibility, in fact they fight tooth and nail to cover things up no matter how serious the mistakes, and rather than taking the blame they are all like rats scurrying off a sinking ship. Then we have politics; does anyone really believe that Left, Right, Centre, UKIP, Green, any of them really mean anything new or different anymore, it seems to me now just another profession that pays well and rather a club for nice Middle class people (mostly) who talk and talk and talk, but do very little for the mass of people who often work hard and just get by. Then we have the blatant rip-off of the gas, electricity, water, transport that is a blight on all who are poor, whether working or not. This is now out of control, and these people are not being checked in any way, and we have a government that colludes with them. Then the attacks on the poor, disabled and unemployed. And, the most unfair reality of all, the fact that multi-millionaires and billionaires, businesses, corporations and international businesses are effortlessly dodging tax.

How do we even begin to put any of that right Old Sport? I'd love to hear genuine suggestions.

In reply to an earlier post on 26 Jun 2013 21:19:44 BDT
The One says:
Why should somebody else take over and be in charge? Why do you need someone to tell you what to do?

In reply to an earlier post on 26 Jun 2013 21:31:57 BDT
I Readalot says:
Ah, an anarchist, always one.

In reply to an earlier post on 26 Jun 2013 21:48:31 BDT
Spin says:
TSC; Whenever a case of institutional or societal corruption is discovered, we wring our hands and "demand an inquiry". There are so many inquiries going on right now I've lost track of them. And in the end, they do nothing to halt corruption. Laws change, staff are fired and occasionally someone is jailed, but corruption remains, only to be found at a later date to be more secretive and more hidden, resulting in yet another inquiry... Moral corruption can only be rooted out by direct action; mass protest, the withdrawal of ones labour and obligations to the State, the removal of authority from the corrupt and the re-structuring of the staffing, administration and remit of corrupt institutions.

In reply to an earlier post on 26 Jun 2013 23:14:03 BDT
T. S. C. says:
'Spin says:

TSC; Whenever a case of institutional or societal corruption is discovered, we wring our hands and "demand an inquiry". There are so many inquiries going on right now I've lost track of them.'

Yes Old Sport, it does get rather tedious doesn't it? Waiting for a cover-up, scandal or a corruption is now like waiting for a bus; if one doesn't come in 5 minutes, then in 10 minutes you know three will come along at the same time. And I often ask, in all seriousness, why do people who have wealth, privilege, the best of everything, an expensive wonderful house in an exclusive area, still feel the need to be greedy and want more and more and more? Most corruption, not all, just boils down to people who are utterly selfish and completely greedy and usually amoral. You said it all mate, we are pawns to be used in whatever current game the rich and powerful want to play.

'Laws change, staff are fired and occasionally someone is jailed, but corruption remains, only to be found at a later date to be more secretive and more hidden, resulting in yet another inquiry...'

Yes, again completely tedious. And can't you tell that when a government minister comes on the screen to tell us all "it'll never happen again guv" or "we didn't know anything" or "we'll get to the bottom of this" they always seem to be saying it through gritted teeth don't they, as if inferring that we are the rulers and you can't challenge or question us in anyway. That's the feeling I get from one scandal after another anyway. You are the plebs, to be used or ignored, useful for fighting wars about 'democracy' and 'freedom' or keeping the economy going in crummy dead end jobs, but we rule and we do what we want. Such is life, dear boy, such is life.

In reply to an earlier post on 27 Jun 2013 08:59:40 BDT
The One says:
No.........individual - liberty for oneself.

In reply to an earlier post on 27 Jun 2013 09:57:28 BDT
Last edited by the author on 27 Jun 2013 11:58:04 BDT
Although a firm believer in liberty, I feel the: 'liberty for oneself' type of individualism leads to the fragmentisation of society. One man's 'liberty' is another man's licence, which often damages the broader framework of the society of which we are all part.

Example:- As children, my brother/sisters and I were allowed to go 'up the woods', explore the old quarry, visit the village shop and/or playground etc... from about the age of six because our parents knew the village people were decent family types themselves, posing no threat to either us or others.

This tranquil (and highly civilised) environment was due in no small measure to the prevailing attitudes of those times, which were far more severe on those who disregarded the well-being of their neighbours than is today's world.

An example of this 'greater good' v 'individual rights' is illustrated by what happened when a friend of mine was attacked/bitten, while walking home from school by the village drunk's dog. My grandfather simply went and shot the offending dog the next afternoon, to the approval of virtually the entire village; particularly the mother's with young children.

Amid today's climate of 'civil rights' such a public spirited action would almost certainly result in prosecution, BUT that's the only such 'dangerous dog' incident I remember during my entire childhood. Today it's unusual to walk through a town shopping centre without seeing a group of skinny/drunken youths intimitating someone with 'pitbull terrier' type dog/dogs.

Unfettered 'liberty' for the individual tends toward disregard for the rights of others; which first damages and ultimately destroys, social cohesion.

In reply to an earlier post on 27 Jun 2013 12:11:38 BDT
Spin says:
TSC: It is the system itself that is corrupt. The capitalist, liberal, "free" society adheres to an inherently corrupt ideology. This is why corruption is so prevalent in all areas of that society; every aspect of society, government and church, policing and Laws, media and celebrity, sport and art, relies entirely on the maintenance of structures based on a corrupt ideology. If the ideology is corrupt then all structures based on it, be they practical, material or intellectual, are corrupted as well. Hence, the corruption of the "Rich and powerful", who some believe neither need nor deserve anymore wealth or power, is to them a normality, a way of life. Profiteering, of any kind, is not seen as a moral issue but as a raison d'etre.

In reply to an earlier post on 27 Jun 2013 18:57:37 BDT
Pipkin says:
Excellent summary TS.
How DO we effect changes.
How can the minority hold such power over us and have their teeth so firmly embedded in our thighs so that we just can't shake them free? Sadly, I feel that the ordinary man and woman has, in their ignorance, allowed themselves to be manipulated by capitalist media propaganda to buy into a dream that did not exist. We are so entrapped by their rhetoric, fear of non-existent terrorists, and promises of a better life that we believe any old propaganda. We have willingly involved ourselves in the hatred and killing of men women and children we have never met to enable the theft of their resources. We have closed our eyes and ears and have become desensitised to the plight and suffering of others who have had their lives appallingly decimated by the greed of the West, and only now when things are beginning to slip through our fingers are we realising that we are all culpable because we have willingly consumed and become greedy for possessions and status. We have worked all our lives for; Designer Clothes, Exotic foreign holidays, Newest Technology, Fame, Fortune and Celebrity, which is worthless in the grand scheme of things.....and we have been trapped into 'chasing the dragon' so to speak; when the real contentment was under our noses. Love for our families, neighbours and the rest of the people of the earth who are equally as disenfranchised and manipulated as we are.
Have you ever heard of Universal Consciousness?
I believe that there are changes happening: never before in all my life have those in such high places been crashing down as they are doing now.... and their dark souls revealed. I know that things aren't changing quickly, but am certain that the world is waking up. I really and truly believe that thought, or prayer if you like, can make a difference. For example; if we were all to sit down quietly and ask the Universe to disempower the evil doers, and empower the peace loving meek people then I really think it would make a difference.
Perhaps I am being nave and odd? But I have experienced changes myself from prayers, albeit it small ones. Without going into too much detail; when I was seriously ill, and petrified out of my wits, I asked for guidance, strength, and courage to carry the cross I had been given. (By the way - I am not religious, in any way) My life changed, practically overnight, I became less selfish and more altruistic. Until that time all I had concentrated on was gathering possessions and money to provide what I thought was security for the family. I was then forced by my illness to give up that 'fight' and began instead to concentrate on Voluntary work for the community; Victim Support, Neighbourhood Watch, School PFA, and Youth Work...I got to know personally all the people I lived alongside of. I can't begin to explain everything on one page, but I know that my 'prayers' were answered. Not necessarily in any way that I would have imagined, but enough for me to know/feel that if all the 'good' people were to make a conscious effort to 'pray' or 'will' a change, then it would happen.
I am in no doubt that some people go into politics, with very good intentions, and not for their own personal aggrandizement, but sadly I believe that they become infected by the virus that is corruption and greed. I think it must come as a terrible shock when they realise just how deep the corruption runs. I believe that Nick Clegg was one such man, and can see it written on his face that all was not as he expected.... and that he is stuck between a rock and a hard place. I have written to him expressing my views, so it remains to be seen which way he will jump.
I will never understand Politics or why they have Parties.... Is this just a means of dividing the people, to rule?
Sorry for the length of this post.
Mx

In reply to an earlier post on 27 Jun 2013 23:02:25 BDT
Spin says:
ME: Many years ago there was a genuine difference in ideology between political parties. The two major political systems, Communism and Capitalism, sustained political dialogue. With the fall of Communism, Capitalism was left as the only influential political system. Thus even Socialist politics started to adopt what was called "The Third Way", (a movement instigated in the Uk by Blair) with even China adopting Capitalist principles. So it is that today, all political parties are merely advocating capitalist agendas under different banners. Politics today is no more than debate as to how to achieve the capitalist ideal. The great debates of the past, concerning how a society should proceed in terms of ideology, are long gone.

In reply to an earlier post on 28 Jun 2013 16:59:13 BDT
Pipkin says:
I agree Spin.
All Political 'Parties' are the same... absolutely nothing to choose between them imo. The only things that change are their heads.
Politics are a joke, a game being played at our expense. We are given the illusion of choice, but there is none. We are supposedly consulted, but first are subjected to such intense propaganda and confusion, that most people don't know their ar** from their elbow by the end of it, and would vote for a monkey if it stood for their 'party' of choice.
I do not even believe that ''there is a debate as to how to achieve the capitalist ideal.'' But that it is set in stone by the hidden elite who are pulling the strings, throughout the world... and have been since Eisenhower's time and he warned about them.
The proof is all around: How could our Industry have been picked up wholesale and shipped abroad? How can the Banks get away with all their scams and no one effectively challenge them? How can the Capitalist dogs get away with not paying taxes?
As comedian and columnist Mark Steel said on Question time last night, people are sick and tired of hearing that we can't touch the rich because they'll go away! Then spoke about ''The retail entrepreneur Philip Green who has banked 1.2bn after awarding himself the biggest pay cheque in British corporate history. The huge dividend has come from the Arcadia fashion business, which has 2,000 outlets and spans high street names including Top Shop, Wallis and Burton. It is more than four times the group's pre-tax profits of 253m.
The billionaire revealed a 1.2bn pay out yesterday as he unveiled Arcadia's annual results. Mr Green owns 92% of the business and will therefore receive 1.17bn. The balance will go to the banking group HBOS, which bankrolled his purchase of the business for 850m three years ago and owns 8% of the shares.
The entrepreneur's payday is nearly 100m more than the previous record.
Mr Green's 1.2bn WILL NOT BE TAXED AS IT WILL BE PAID TO HIS WIFE TINA, WHO LIVES IN MONACO. Mrs Green is the direct owner of Arcadia.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2005/oct/21/executivesalaries.executivepay
Mark then said how amazing it is that people have been brainwashed to accept that ''we have to pay the global market rate'' for all the greedy bar stewards. (Or get what we pay for?)
Then Liz Kendall labour MP said that there were more people working in HMC means testing child benefits, that there were investigating billion pound evasions by big businesses? So why is this?
What I don't understand is that these things are exposed, but it would appear that people generally are totally unable to assimilate the information, either that they just couldn't care less?
I wish that Party politics could be totally eliminated. If that means Communist type way of governing then that's what I want. By the People - for the People......
Anything has to be better than what we have now. Where the greedy bar stewards are robbing the country blind.

Latest scam - didn't we buy RBS? And now they are trying to sell it off to the highest bidder? Did anyone notice this tucked away at the end of the news last week?
''George Osborne is set to pave the way for the pre-election sell-off of both Lloyds Bank and the Royal Bank of Scotland.
The Chancellor will outline his plans in his annual Mansion House speech tonight after making it clear he wants to get the failed banks off the Government's books and get the 60billion that was ploughed in to keep them afloat.
He said: "We want to return these banks to private ownership. It's not good for Britain to be owning these large banks.
"Second, we want to make sure the taxpayer gets value for money.
"We put a lot of our money into these banks and we want to get the money back.
"And the third point is that we want these banks to be strong supporters of the economy."
Shares in Lloyds are close to the 73.6p that the Treasury paid for them under the rescue deal but RBS SHARES ARE TRADING WAY BELOW THE 5 THEY COST THE TAX PAYER IN THAT BAILOUT.

Wow I don't suppose that was one of the things on the agenda at Bilderberger and then again at the G8? Wait until the price is rock bottom and then sell off to their mates to make a killing? Exactly like our Steel and Coal industry.
My advice is to keep an eye on who gains

http://www.mirror.co.uk/money/city-news/lloyds-rbs-set-sold-george-1962752#ixzz2XWgvv1vn

Magsx

In reply to an earlier post on 29 Jun 2013 01:06:03 BDT
Spin says:
ME: It is the multi-nationals that are destroying the economy. How is a small, family-owned business to compete with these giants? Ban multi-nationals from operating in this nation and provide the population with business, opportunity, employment and wealth.

Posted on 29 Jun 2013 01:42:50 BDT
Spin - "Ban multi-nationals from operating in this nation and provide the population with business, opportunity, employment and wealth."

Would you buy your car from a local coach-builder (hand-built, of course) or from a reputable, large-scale production-line multi-national, at a fraction of the cost?
The last time I saw a price tag on a Talbot, it was equivalent to several good London flats!
British Leyland was obviously not multi-national enough. It should have been producing cars in China, Korea and the Philippines.
Land-Rover couldn't make it in Britain alone!
And whatever happened to Jaguar?
What Bank or financial institution is capable today of operating at a national-only level.
Small is beautiful, but bigger is better, and in some cases more efficient.
Globalisation is here to stay! "Catch 22" demonstrated how!
Communism is a great idea, but it's still waiting to be put into practice effectively!
Where has the American/ Soviet dream vanished to?

In reply to an earlier post on 29 Jun 2013 12:34:35 BDT
Spin says:
Michael: I would not buy a car. I am too concerned about the damage automobiles do to ones health and ones environment (in their production and fuel); damage which increases with mass production of cheap vehicles. Further, there may have been a time when the car industry created employment, but no more; cars are made by robots (which themselves require extreme amounts of energy). As for the Banks, there should be only one National Bank. Most banks home-grown private operate by investing overseas; a government owned bank can do the same, but its profits go towards the welfare of the national population, not the welfare of capitalist profiteers. Shares in the stock of this national bank should be offered to the public so that everyone can invest in a bank that operates for the benefit of the citizens not the suits. Lastly, the term "Globalisation" is just a politically correct term for capitalist invasion and domination of foreign markets. Capitalism is becoming an Empire and, like all empires, it will eventually collapse.

In reply to an earlier post on 29 Jun 2013 15:45:54 BDT
T. S. C. says:
'Spin says:

TSC: It is the system itself that is corrupt. The capitalist, liberal, "free" society adheres to an inherently corrupt ideology. This is why corruption is so prevalent in all areas of that society; every aspect of society, government and church, policing and Laws, media and celebrity, sport and art, relies entirely on the maintenance of structures based on a corrupt ideology. If the ideology is corrupt then all structures based on it, be they practical, material or intellectual, are corrupted as well. Hence, the corruption of the "Rich and powerful", who some believe neither need nor deserve anymore wealth or power, is to them a normality, a way of life. Profiteering, of any kind, is not seen as a moral issue but as a raison d'etre.'

In short, I could not have said it better myself. Life, since people first started settling in cities and becoming 'civilised' has always been about corruption.
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Initial post:  25 Jun 2013
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