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Customer Discussions > jazz discussion forum

The decline of jazz and how it was ruined.

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Showing 1-25 of 175 posts in this discussion
Initial post: 5 May 2011 09:31:58 BDT
Sally says:
Jazz became pretentious and pandered to white rock fans after Miles Davis started dressing like Gary Glitter.

Posted on 5 May 2011 09:34:49 BDT
Carradale says:
"Jazz isn't dead. It just smells funny" Frank Zappa

Posted on 5 May 2011 09:49:43 BDT
Huck Flynn says:
a bit sweeping that - jazz is hardly a single "entity" owned by one type of listener
who would you have it pander to - black people from the ghettos ?
some examples would be useful - jazz that white rock fans listen to?

In reply to an earlier post on 5 May 2011 10:31:07 BDT
Sally says:
Jazz that white rock fans listen to include - anything on ECM , anything avantgarde especially music that sounds like a fire in a pet shop. Davis's lps from Bitches Brew onwards , Chick Corea , Pharoah Sanders , Herbie Hancock , Archie Shepp.

In reply to an earlier post on 5 May 2011 14:06:43 BDT
M. Adams says:
You are entitled to your opinion of course, but I think this is daft. As Huck Flynn says: Jazz is hardly a single entity, and the idea that all jazz artists "pander" to any group of fans -lovers of white rock or anything else -seems to me to be manifestly untrue, I mean when did you last hear a fierce backbeat or a screechy guitar solo on a Junior Mance CD for example?

In reply to an earlier post on 5 May 2011 14:35:35 BDT
Sally says:
I'm just a jaded old fart who still listens to Duke Ellington.

Posted on 5 May 2011 15:16:05 BDT
M. Sheldon says:
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In reply to an earlier post on 5 May 2011 15:29:04 BDT
Martin says:
Jazz isn't funny, it just sounds dead - when Jamie Cullum, Michael Bauble et al play it.

Posted on 5 May 2011 15:50:17 BDT
Nugent Dirt says:
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In reply to an earlier post on 5 May 2011 15:55:16 BDT
I can assure you that I'm no youngster Cwynarski, but your opening post certainly appeared to be inflammatory.

There is much jazz that I enjoy and some that I don't - large bands for a start. There are plenty of black artists around who experiment and play "on the edge". As for Miles, he was a true artist continually searching for something new and pushing the boundaries of jazz. It was his audience, like yourself that sometimes had difficulty in keeping up, but jazz is all about the "continual search" IMO.

In reply to an earlier post on 5 May 2011 16:17:42 BDT
Last edited by the author on 5 May 2011 16:18:41 BDT
Martin says:
Exactly - not the sanitised, packaged, totally safe and pointless 'smooth' variety that the majority seem to prefer these days, or the diabolical pop jazz of the two names I mentioned.

Posted on 5 May 2011 16:33:33 BDT
Last edited by the author on 5 May 2011 16:34:06 BDT
Folk said the same when dinosaurs evolved into birds. They're no good, they're not scaly enough!!

How could jazz stay the same and yet be different enough to warrant buying any new albums??

Posted on 5 May 2011 23:07:50 BDT
Vaughan says:
Jazz isn't dead, though some of the people who listened to it are.

Does anyone like every rock album? Do fans of Opera like every Operatic album?

No. So why should Jazz be any different?

In reply to an earlier post on 6 May 2011 10:07:43 BDT
Last edited by the author on 6 May 2011 10:10:25 BDT
Paul G. says:
You surely mean play AT it. Blacks from The Ghetto on the whole don't listen to jazz nor do British blacks listen much. Sadly.

In reply to an earlier post on 6 May 2011 10:22:01 BDT
Last edited by the author on 6 May 2011 10:33:04 BDT
Huck Flynn says:
there is nothing jaded about the Duke but things move on
white people helped make his music popular too
have you listened to EVERYTHING on ECM?

Posted on 6 May 2011 15:25:38 BDT
D. Howden says:
First off I am not old (now late thirties) as people seem to think jazz is only listened to by the old folks these days but I can remember starting my Jazz listening by playing my parents ODLJB album as well as Pee Wee Hunts 12 street rag album and Paul Desmonds/Dave Brubecks 'Take Five' and I can remember buying a Charlie Parker album and thinking this all sounds odd and I don't understand it, but now I buy as much Bird and Diz as I can and listen to John Coltranes 'Love Supreme' and think to myself that this all sounds odd, tastes change but the great thing is there is room for all jazz in your collection, as long as my wife lets me keep buying albums, space permitting, I'll be a happy man!

Posted on 7 May 2011 00:57:15 BDT
how about dutch/french/uk jazz band depoint noxant ? these days forgotten,no lp or cd release exists these days and i can't think of any other artist with the audacity to issue,for their one and only release,a 20 lp set,briefly available in the late 80's as a 20 cd set.they even gave it the unimaginative title "box set".this is rarely far from my turntable or cd player,depending which format i am listening to.this is by and large my favourite jazz album,from someone who usually cringes at the very's jazz fired from many kilns.track it down.i spotted a cd copy on ebay recently.

In reply to an earlier post on 7 May 2011 05:44:20 BDT
Carradale says:
Not heard of them I'm afraid and can't find any reference to "depoint noxant" anywhere on the web.

But they certainly seem to have ruined the decline of jazz as far a you are concerned!

Posted on 7 May 2011 13:29:13 BDT
Last edited by the author on 7 May 2011 13:39:30 BDT
zargb5 says:
Jazz should be frozen cryogenically and put in a museum? I like rock, i like jazz, i like jazz rock, i like classical, i like all sorts - from bach to avant gard. ECM has produced a lot of great music over the last few decades. Hell i don't even mind Marsalis' music (though he can stick his conservative opinions where the sun don't shine) I grew up listening to 'white rock' i listen to the Duke,Parker,Armstrong, Beiderbecke, Derek bailey, Ornette, John Zorn, MMW. I have an open mind and like to explore music its an adventure.

Jazz isn't dead - its just not getting enough airplay, media attention - its been squeezed out by bean counters in suits in charge of advertising budgets and the chase for ratings. The masses have always been pandered to with 3 minute, simplistic, often depthless catchy pop tunes. The kenny G's, neuvo flamenco and soft jazz artists are just the crass commercial aspect of what people want people to think jazz is (5hit in their opinion - but it sells more than pooper scooper bags) The real stuff and we all know what it is really will survive in whatever form it's evolving into and whatever its played on. its the music that counts. Those that appreciate the music, the skill, the interaction, the playing with the form know what the music is. There are enough devoted, explorative, proper listeners out there to keep it alive. Things don't stay the same.

Posted on 9 May 2011 04:07:23 BDT
S. R. Tulip says:
The idea that jazz got ruined by turning to rock fans is a bit silly when you consider that, a few years later, so called rock fans developed a hatred for musicianship which is still hanging on today.
Many jazz musicians turned to soul, specifically funk, and this created some great music too. It's a bit of a soft target to say that most fusion ( rock or funk ) is garbage; this is true of all jazz and all genres of music.
I suppose jazz really came to an end as a major force in music when Wynton Marsallis started recycling its history ( though it should be said - he did it rather well ), just like hip hop recycling ( particularly P ) Funk. No doubt people will leap to the defence of a load of artists only they know, but when did we last have a John Coltrane emerge ? I'll give you a clue - he came from the bands of Miles and Monk.

Posted on 9 May 2011 23:11:08 BDT
zargb5 says:
I take your point. Maybe its decline record sales wise is connected more with wider cultural context. In one sense radio stations to be popular only play nostalgia and very popular artists. On the other hand we have at our fingertips access to the downright obscure and cult status. There's so many artists/music vying for attention out there it is easy to see why talented players can remain fairly anonymous or just have a small specialized following. I think if someone with Coltrane's credentials came along today it would be difficult for him/her to even get noticed beyond a small coterie of ardent fans. The form has certainly split into a huge tree of variation and other influences and the ways we listen and buy music has changed. I don't know maybe someone with great talent could rise in popularity and gain a large audience like Jarrett, Coltrane, metheny etc but they are from the last generation of jazz stars, the newer bunch are certainly talented and maybe good old word of mouth and hard touring is the way. There' s certainly no shortage of artists trying out new things - but they won't get contracts or radio play unless they conform to the norm (also the kiss of death to creativity)

In reply to an earlier post on 11 May 2011 15:30:59 BDT
Mr. P says:
Clearly this statement is not thought thru and powered by a nostalgia for the 'golden days' of Jazz. But there is, in its [I assume] humorous and confrontational statement a large element of that all music of Black origin: Blues/Gospel/Jazz/Soul/Funk/Disco/Hip Hop etc gets watered down and appropriated by the mainstream and is presented in a very anaemic, washed out form of entertainment that is no longer the same animal.

This is the history of popular American music.....all of which is based on Black American music that is initially feared, ridiculed, dimissed, judged as unsophisticated and primal and then slowly copied, plagarised, apprpriated and finally assimilated to such a degree the originators no longer exclusively own either the art form or its history. Been happening for over 120 years....from Bing Crosby to Eminem.

As Eperanza Spalding recently said....

"She has expressed concerns that jazz has wandered from its roots, suggesting that jazz has lost its street value and its relevance to "the Black experience to the Black Diaspora and beyond" now that has been co-opted by the "seasoned 'art' community."[7] She notes that in its early days, jazz was "popular dance music" and "the music of young people who considered themselves awfully hip", and believes "hip-hop, or neo-soul ... is our 'jazz' now as far as the role these genres play in the music genre lineage...."

In reply to an earlier post on 11 May 2011 15:35:01 BDT
Mr. P says:
zargb5 says:

"Jazz isn't dead - its just not getting enough airplay, media attention - its been squeezed out by bean counters in suits in charge of advertising budgets and the chase for ratings."

Now thats the damn TRUTH! This is the truth for a lot of quality artists of all genre's today. I've noticed peeps feelin Jazz whether classic or new....but they either dont realise it is actually in the Jazz idiom or they dont listen to a lot of it....cos these days you gotta dig deep under all the MTV-sponsored, Simon Cowell produced mess to get to it.

In reply to an earlier post on 11 May 2011 15:38:05 BDT
Mr. P says:
S. R. Tulip says: "but when did we last have a John Coltrane emerge ?"

Check out James Carter, sax....Roy Hargrove, Trumpet.....and Lizz Wright, Ledisi, Dianne Reeves and Cassandra Wilson for vocalese.
Those who still need it....find it and feel it.

Posted on 11 May 2011 17:55:49 BDT
D.C. Barber says:
Hi you-all.....................Very pleased to see that a website like this still gets so many messages about Jazz....But as regards the typical ( from my point of view) criticisms that I read I very much regret to inform you that when I started a jazz collection (that has never ended) in around 1947 the opinions of non-musicians were as negative as these........I decided to join the professional musician side of the music and have no intention of stopping anytime soon.........I was asked around 1954 "can jazz survuive the trad boom" and I said (and it is still true but some names are different) "It has survived World War 1....The great depression.......The Era of Art Deco war 2...the korean war...the Vietnam war......and even Kenny G, I suppose.............You may even have classed me and my friends as one of the obstacles but I was satisfied to get seriously full approval from the great teacher, John Lewis, and the top of the Blues, Muddy Waters so I won't apologise for anything!!!!.................whatever you like (except maybe freejazz) you might find something unexpected on my birthday album if you are very brave!..........Good Luck to ALL Jazz lovers.........Chris Barber
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Discussion in:  jazz discussion forum
Participants:  44
Total posts:  175
Initial post:  5 May 2011
Latest post:  29 Oct 2013

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