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free jazz-totally worthless or am i missing something


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In reply to an earlier post on 1 Feb 2012 18:51:55 GMT
Last edited by the author on 1 Feb 2012 18:56:33 GMT
To suggest that thought was involved with coming to that conclusion does thinking a disservice(although I would be interested to hear their argument)

edit; this comment of mine shows the tattered state my mind is in and makes no real sense, even to me. I have left it so that others may learn from my mistake.

In reply to an earlier post on 1 Feb 2012 18:03:37 GMT
Last edited by the author on 1 Feb 2012 18:04:30 GMT
Ajarn Col says:
I've heard the same said about Miles Davis. It's all old hat really.

re. Ornette Coleman, I once again offer this video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=edOAhRX3L48&feature=context&context=G239a650RVAAAAAAAAAw

Posted on 1 Feb 2012 17:19:06 GMT
Ben Basing says:
There are people ... or at least there were people, who think Ornette Coleman does not play jazz!

In reply to an earlier post on 1 Feb 2012 16:45:33 GMT
Jerry was a serious player, amazing indeed, and interested in jazz as you state. His playing on the Virgin Beauty album is first class, but the same tracks could be played without him I reckon.

I am halfway through the 45 min Dark Star on the GD Rotterdam 72 gig, where Jerry is playing an absolute blinder. In the first section he was using guitar figures similar to Robt Fripp in the solo from Sailors Tale by Krim(around the 12.30 mark cd 3 track 1) and in the second section he plays a guitar figure similar to Fracture(again, around the 12 min mark track 3 cd 3), again by Krim, although not released in studio form until early 74(Fripp sometimes took improvs and used them as the framework for the studio versions).

So I know Jerry is a wondeful musician. I wish he was further up in the mix on the Virgin Beauty album, he deserved it.

In reply to an earlier post on 1 Feb 2012 15:33:44 GMT
Last edited by the author on 2 Feb 2012 19:47:14 GMT
Ajarn Col says:
Smitty , once again I find myself in disagreement with you. I'm not sure that I'd define Garcia's guest appearance on the 3 tracks as being decorative. But we agree that on "Singing In The Shower" Garcia's guitar playing in an integral part. But of course Ornette in all of his recordings knew exactly what he wanted. But really my point was to highlight that Gerry Garcia was appreciative of jazz and particularly Ornette Coleman, also that must have influenced his playing with the Grateful Dead to an extent.

In reply to an earlier post on 1 Feb 2012 15:06:44 GMT
Deep Brew, a bootleg of outtakes from thhose sessions is very noodle in nature. Teo Macero was without doubt one of the main pillars of construction of the albums from that date. His was a vital contribution methinks.

Posted on 1 Feb 2012 15:04:12 GMT
The version of Dark Star that graces the Rotterdam 72 gig from the Europe 72 Box Set clocks in at around 43 mins, not including the drum solo spot, and has some amazing free running improv in many places throughout its duration. When the Grateful Dead played Dark Star live they used it as a jumping off spot to indulge in some serious improv, completely different in nature to the studio albums and nothing like them in playing style either.

Jerrys contribution to Ornette Colemans Virgin Beauty is mainly decorative in my opinion. Ornette had things well nailed down by the time Jerry got there I reckon. However Garcias guitar tone is sublime and helps flesh out the sound of the tracks he appears on.

In reply to an earlier post on 1 Feb 2012 14:30:13 GMT
Ajarn Col says:
Fair point about the Grateful Dead not being jazz being more eclectic, but it's also worth remembering that Gerry Garcia was an admirer of jazz and appeared on Ornette Colman's album Virgin Beauty

Posted on 1 Feb 2012 14:20:35 GMT
Ben Basing says:
GF- I'd never thought of Grateful Dead as a country rock band (like The Eagles)- they play rock instruments and improvise, so I sort of classify them somewhere near King Crimson. But then GD live and GD in the studio are a bit different- my enthusiasm for Pink Floyd is based upon their improvised stuff rather than the clever studio bits- even Dark Side of the Moon was improvised a long time ago!
Free Jazz is another label to apply as you will, but I think the essence of it is improvisation free of a theme- unlike just jazz when there is often some kind of standard behind the improv. The best bit is when something unexpected happens ... and works, which is easier if everything is unexpected.

Posted on 1 Feb 2012 13:52:14 GMT
I got The Complete Bitches Brew Sessions and I'm sorry to say I'm disappointed. There's far too much random tootling from Miles Davis and tuneless keyboard mania from Zawinul. If I am missing something please tell me how! And why are Grateful Dead in this thread? They were a country rock band ... weren't they? I speak only from knowledge of "Working Man's" and "American Beauty".

In reply to an earlier post on 21 Jan 2012 15:12:24 GMT
Last edited by the author on 21 Jan 2012 15:13:28 GMT
Thats what wrecked your hip, Lez, tsk tsk tsk.......

All those years of abuse finally caved it in :-(

Hows it doing recoverywise?

In reply to an earlier post on 21 Jan 2012 15:11:56 GMT
I would have been walking back then anyway. Whot a tyoob!

Posted on 21 Jan 2012 13:20:54 GMT
Lez Lee says:
Lived there for 34 years Mark, loved it. Wonderful city.

In reply to an earlier post on 21 Jan 2012 13:16:24 GMT
Mark Porter says:
Too bad LL, but I see your reasoning. I went to Sheffield once, but fortunately survived.

Posted on 21 Jan 2012 13:06:13 GMT
Lez Lee says:
Missed Arcade Fire's gig in Sheffield (before they were well-known) because I didn't fancy being in a dodgy area late at night. Been kicking myself ever since.

Posted on 21 Jan 2012 10:37:17 GMT
Mark Porter says:
Re the (missed) SME gig - I remember now it was at the Little Theatre Club.

In reply to an earlier post on 21 Jan 2012 10:29:23 GMT
Mark Porter says:
That's really annoying yeh. You could even have walked, and saved the petrol money!

Posted on 21 Jan 2012 09:39:30 GMT
No earlier than your good self, Mark!

A gig that really nigged me was a David Gilmour one when he did a solo tour during the Floyd hiatus. He was playing a small venue less than a mile from where I was living and I just thought nah.................duh, more like. It was superb by all accounts and this was hammered home many years later whn I heard bootlegs from that tour. What a numpty I was!!!

Posted on 21 Jan 2012 09:29:58 GMT
Mark Porter says:
Hi smitty, you are up early .... my missed gig was in London, at the Vortex place I think. I did forgive my pals in the end.

In reply to an earlier post on 21 Jan 2012 09:23:10 GMT
That would have been a good gig. A pity! I missed Ian Carr with Nucleus one night three decades ago for similar reasons. He was playing a gig in a hotel a few miles up the road that would have been incredible to say the least as the hall in it only held about 100 people. The sound quality ought to have been perfect :-(

Posted on 21 Jan 2012 09:18:47 GMT
Mark Porter says:
I nearly got to see Spontaneous Music Ensemble - my pals were supposed to call and take me to the gig - but they never turned up - swines!

Posted on 20 Jan 2012 21:26:59 GMT
csmithjazz says:
Guess the next note music

In reply to an earlier post on 19 Jan 2012 20:35:53 GMT
re. 1. yes and they appear to be fans of Top Gear http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xZ2YhY5yig

2. I might actually steer clear of those musicians if they get too close to me. Thanks for the tip ;-)

Posted on 19 Jan 2012 20:25:11 GMT
Mark Porter says:
Re Spontaneous Combustion -

1. Spontaneous Music Ensemble were a great band.

2. In the Orient, Buddhist musicians often Spontaneously Combust as their playing takes them to great heights of spiritual energy.

In reply to an earlier post on 19 Jan 2012 17:11:46 GMT
Last edited by the author on 19 Jan 2012 17:13:51 GMT
I agree totally with the repetition aspect to being the main stumbling block in good improv. It is very hard to break the bad habits.

I had to read your third paragraph twice as I thought you had talked about Free Jazz and Spontaneous Combustion, which would make for an incredible night out by any standards ;-)

Amongst the most enjoyable concerts were Edward Vesala and Evan Parkers as free jazz was a major part of the event, well 100% in Parkers case. As you say, being there and absorbing/experiencing it as it happens is the real deal. Priceless as experiences go.
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Discussion in:  jazz discussion forum
Participants:  41
Total posts:  231
Initial post:  18 Dec 2011
Latest post:  9 Dec 2012

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