Customer Discussions > fiction discussion forum

Indie books far from becoming extinct


Sort: Oldest first | Newest first
Showing 151-175 of 247 posts in this discussion
In reply to an earlier post on 19 Jan 2013 12:51:58 GMT
Moving swiftly on . . . trying to understand the lit-fic gig. . .

I mentioned a short that I wrote. Girl meets boy on train, they head off the the toilets . . . and, hey, how's your father.

Anyway, I re-read last night. (There's plenty of room for improvement but that's not the point). How do we get this little ditty into a genre? It's can't be romance as it's clearly stated that love is not the issue. Some see it as a 'rape fantasy', putting it into the erotica genre; but this cannot be the case as they were both consenting adults, besides, the sexual content is too small.

So shall it remain a nondescript ditty until it is formerly recognised at 'literary fiction'? Can a qualify as literary fiction myself? How would I do that? Analysis of formula components.

Character description - none.
Scene description - none.
Dialogue - none.
Character development - none.
Retrospection - none.

So, assuming all of the above is intentional we have 2000 words of two people looking at each other on at train and then deciding to go for a bit of leg-over. Surely this must be lit-fic!

In reply to an earlier post on 19 Jan 2013 13:15:49 GMT
Last edited by the author on 19 Jan 2013 13:16:11 GMT
To develop your idea into a short story of literary fiction, the sex should be purely in the mind (and thus kept pure).

Character description: essential
Scene description: required
Dialogue: thoughts can be considered dialogue
Character development: we demand to know these two people!
Retrospection: stay in the moment

Now go on, write the story.

In reply to an earlier post on 19 Jan 2013 13:31:53 GMT
But Shelagh, you've missed the point. It is written as such. The argument (if I'm to understand Literary fiction correctly) is that the lack of these essential components whilst successfully conveying the story would be what separates lit-fic from all else.

Yes, thoughts can be considered dialogue but as the text only explores her POV there's no interaction. So whether or not it truly qualifies as dialogue is debatable.

Posted on 19 Jan 2013 13:56:45 GMT
And Shelagh, on the essential character description? I don't believe this is true. The human brain files information by way of association. Knowing this, in some respects, it makes for pacier (is that a word) story-telling. With very little information the brain will append from memories. i.e. If you wrote. "The old man bent over the pushchair and held out a sweet to the child." Your brain will search your memory for similar images (not unlike Google). If in the recalled image the old man wore glasses, a flat cap, and brown brogues, your brain will add the existing detail to new image. This method is what causes readers to skip and scan through descriptive passages. i.e. If you write "From the bottom, slowly at first, the mighty skyscraper began to tumble . . ." At this point in the text most brains on the planet will recall the image of the twin towers and use it. If the writer chooses to embark on the lengthy description of twisting steel and breaking glass, the reader's brain scan through thinking . . yeah, yeah. I know this - seen it all before.

In reply to an earlier post on 19 Jan 2013 14:10:17 GMT
carocaro says:
Oh no Michael...as it stands it could loosely fit three categories...contemporary romance, erotica, dubious consent if one wasn't really up for it.

Now the criteria Shelagh gives is fine...but sex purely in the mind is the point to debate. In the mind, would entice some readers, but deliciously titillatingly explicit would gain so many more, throw in a little domination, submission or even spanking discipline and you open yourself to the BDSM market...erotica as an umbrella genre, kink and BDSM also has one of the larger shares of the market. Though romance still the largest but current youth v golden oldie will change the pivotal balance to erotica soon...thing is all genre lovers want a good story, long or short but definitely the bit in the middle :)

In reply to an earlier post on 19 Jan 2013 14:17:31 GMT
But if I submit the pressure of formula I'll be ridiculed by the University Lit-fic crew. I won't win any literary awards. Therefore my life will be meaningless. I'm so confused. Does anybody know who took over from Claire Rayner? Maybe I can email the Samaritans? How does that work anyway? Waiting for a response must be agonising.

In reply to an earlier post on 19 Jan 2013 17:28:59 GMT
I agree, the best thing about kindle is anybody, regardless of literary experience can have a chance to entertain others. I think most people are intelligent enough to realise they will not become best-selling authors, their motivation, as with me is to merely entertain and hope somebody out there enjoys their labour of love, regardless of genre.

In reply to an earlier post on 19 Jan 2013 17:29:46 GMT
carocaro says:
I can take over as agony aunt Michael...I'm sypathetic, worldy wiseish, and really into BDSM...lots to agonise there:)
Email Samaritans, in the snow, they all went home...now if they are white pills hide them in that cold stuff, could help prolong your life and suffering:)

In reply to an earlier post on 19 Jan 2013 18:19:11 GMT
"... their motivation, as with me is to merely entertain and hope somebody out there enjoys their labour of love ..."

Yes, yes, yes, a thousand times yes.

In reply to an earlier post on 19 Jan 2013 18:25:19 GMT
Last edited by the author on 19 Jan 2013 18:29:24 GMT
I very fond of imagery, Michael; I use it a lot. Here's an example:

"Days in February, like days in any other month, are a matter of routine - nothing extraordinary happens. Wednesdays in February of one year are much the same as in any other year. Unfortunately, this particular Wednesday would imprint itself on the minds of people all over the world because, on this day, part of the world went truly mad.

I'd not even been born on the twenty-second of November, nineteen sixty-three; the day millions of people remember exactly where they were and what they were doing when they first heard that John F. Kennedy, President of the United States of America, had been assassinated.

The news of such a devastating event, announced live on American television, soon rippled around the world. This wasn't the first, or last, assassination of a President, but it was the first time anything of such magnitude had been recorded on film, thus ensuring that billions of people, for more than forty years now, have seen the impact of a killer bullet at least once in their lifetime."

―Chapter Three, My Worst Nightmare, The Power of Persuasion © 2008 Shelagh Watkins

If you've seen it, no need to describe it.

In reply to an earlier post on 19 Jan 2013 19:46:17 GMT
Shelagh, I don't get it. But don't worry about it. It's probably not my thing.

In reply to an earlier post on 19 Jan 2013 20:26:07 GMT
Carocaro, I'm going to continue to attempt to peddle this literary cow dung.

Okay, so all throughout the world women and young girls go out into social situations and wake up some time later in a compromising situation not entirely sure of what has happened or why it has happened. The polite may claim they have been taken advantage of. Others look for excuses ranging from having their drink spiked to allegations of rape. (Most of the time they're just plain drunk) Victims of circumstance can never take responsibility because they are not like 'that' and would never behave 'that' way.

The truth of it is that our conscious selves make excuses for life and reasons it all out to make sense. Beneath this our subconscious is just a dumb animal. When our conscious becomes incapacitated our subconscious takes charge and does the two things it knows to do to prolong life and the species. It knows to eat (that explains the drunken desire for a kebab on the way home) and it knows to breed, this explains why people wake up in the wrong bed or don't understand why they did the thing they did last night. For women I suppose it's particularly difficult as at certain times Mother nature is also bringing significant pressure.

So imagine this. You're in position to 'relive' last night but you're powerless to do anything about it.
You're at the office party you happen to glance at Ben from accounting and mother nature says "Go on girl. Get stuck in."
"But I don't even fancy him," you object.
"But he'll do," she says. "He's got good genes."
"But he's married."
"Doesn't mean he's not virile. Besides, in the whole cycle thing . . . now's a good time."
"But I'm married."
"Your husband is not here, and tonight's the night . . ."

The problem is that alcohol or other drugs have robbed you of your conscious moral reasoning, any attempt to reason with yourself will fall on deaf ears, you will lose the argument, and do the nasty. You have become an animal, and you will do what animals do, no?

Posted on 19 Jan 2013 20:55:56 GMT
carocaro says:
I don't become an animal Michael, I am one, as are all of us and biology conditions us all to a certain extent, some greater, others lesser. When two unattached people respond to chemistry and hormones and want to play, a few things stop women, younger ones don't usually understand their sexual needs and dangers of sex whether its protection from STI's or pregnancy. Drugs, drink, flattery often overcome these barriers, including we never think it will happen to us immortality and one more chance syndrome.
Society has bred into us for generations moral expectations, legal responsibilities and so on.
Some will get it on regardless of marriage and other prior commitments. Others will regretfully say no and go home. Are they more moral, stronger characters, more socially conditioned as to rights and wrongs.
I know from personal experience that a man likes sex for procreation and for comfort, if hurt emotionally in particular. Example, young couple, child dies, she will want cuddle, hold and comfort reassurance, at that time not sex, yet husband will want sex, biologically to spread his genes as far and wide as possible and procreate again and also as a comfort mechanism to feel alive and fight back. Reason is I am attempting to show we respond differently to different outside stimuli beyond our control.
Two in your situation could just go for it, or a sudden no by her cut and run or try...this is when he might push his luck, it's dubious consent, can end on a rape charge if he is at that point of no control but release.
Then women with hormones flooding their system and this can be pre and post menopausal...cougars are worst or best:) and sure of their body, past moral and social inhibitions can be worse than any man and want sex as and when and as much as they can get.
You pick your character, age, social upbringing and standing, situation and write accordingly. Some will want to imagine the situation you the writer lead them too. Others will want depth and detail and almost a moment by moment description from start to finish and go the whole journey with you, including their release through your writing:) Like Gone with the Wind Hollywood style versus Gone with the Wind down and dirty porn version.

In reply to an earlier post on 19 Jan 2013 23:14:08 GMT
Carocaro, I think you're inserting reason, calculation, and thought into situations where there often is none. I know from watching as first a DJ and then a club manager there is behaviour which is totally mindless. (Particularly at the on-campus clubs). I've instructed doormen to prevent a girl getting into a car three men (and boy did she object to our intervention). But I could see tomorrow's headlines.

Writing-wise I've always liked the psychological stuff. In the story I was referring to the male character is clearly a passenger in events. Any arguments are between her and subconscious. Her final resignation contains one of my favourite lines. "She'd served the crotch as ordered, and so fulfilled her brief."

In reply to an earlier post on 19 Jan 2013 23:37:00 GMT
"Shelagh, I don't get it. But don't worry about it. It's probably not my thing."

So why are you still trying to explain something that you don't get?

In reply to an earlier post on 19 Jan 2013 23:45:49 GMT
Shelagh, you have totally lost me.

(1) You posted an excerpt from your book.
(2) I replied saying I didn't get it.
(3) I continued to discuss hormone driven sex with Carocaro . . . I'm not trying to explain anything to anybody.

Posted on 20 Jan 2013 00:12:03 GMT
carocaro says:
Yes there comes a point where rationale goes and hormones and hedonism take over, usually with an inhibitor of some form first. Sexual pleasure, release and endorphins that flow and that is what is so intoxicating with the kink/BDSM scene for so many. Despite the negatives over that book...it's called to many, more women than men and has awakened things in them they seek but don't understand.
Good luck with your scene.

Posted on 20 Jan 2013 08:58:09 GMT
carocaro says:
There was a past where I behaved in similar fashion, the male was nice, few drinks...occasional spliff or puff of NO2 (medical parties I attended in my youth...and discos...and!) and yes hormones, chemical attraction, go get some attitude and enjoy. No safety didn't play a central role but yes a flicker occasionally on the periphery that said maybe you were getting in too deep or more than you bargained. The rohypnol or date rape drug wasn't in the public domain but there were alternatives and men worked in pairs as predators at times. However, only fear was hope this person you didn't know and was heading off with wasn't a psycho and you lived to see tomorrow...you still went if no specific bad vibes.

Posted on 20 Jan 2013 10:25:01 GMT
Tinca says:
To Shelagh and carocaro, I would just like to express my utter admiration for you both.

Posted on 20 Jan 2013 10:41:38 GMT
carocaro says:
Haha, go on Tinca, why?

In reply to an earlier post on 20 Jan 2013 11:02:54 GMT
Tinca says:
Your patience, persistence, your fortitude and generosity with your time... it's a long list.

My father used to say that there are none so blind as those that will not see but you are not letting this put you off - respect.

Posted on 20 Jan 2013 11:40:01 GMT
Ethereal says:
I suspected it was an insult but wasn't entirely sure who it was aimed at!

Posted on 20 Jan 2013 12:29:10 GMT
Thanks, Tricia!

Posted on 20 Jan 2013 12:34:58 GMT
Sometimes . . . HRT isn't effective. . . or Boo hoo hoo! Or, the grown-ups are having a conversation not involving me. Or maybe both.

Posted on 20 Jan 2013 12:43:54 GMT
Yes, Michael, it's all about you, isn't it? You said "With very little information the brain will append from memories. i.e. If you wrote. "The old man bent over the pushchair and held out a sweet to the child." Your brain will search your memory for similar images (not unlike Google). If in the recalled image the old man wore glasses, a flat cap, and brown brogues, your brain will add the existing detail to new image. This method is what causes readers to skip and scan through descriptive passages. i.e. If you write "From the bottom, slowly at first, the mighty skyscraper began to tumble . . ." At this point in the text most brains on the planet will recall the image of the twin towers and use it. If the writer chooses to embark on the lengthy description of twisting steel and breaking glass, the reader's brain scan through thinking . . yeah, yeah. I know this - seen it all before."

I gave an example of a passage without any description but very strong imagery ... and you say that you don't get it?
[Add comment]
Add your own message to the discussion
To insert a product link use the format: [[ASIN:ASIN product-title]] (What's this?)
Prompts for sign-in
 


More Customer Discussions

Most active community forums
Most active product forums

Amazon forums
 

This discussion

Discussion in:  fiction discussion forum
Participants:  12
Total posts:  247
Initial post:  10 Jan 2013
Latest post:  25 Jan 2013

New! Receive e-mail when new posts are made.
Tracked by 2 customers

Search Customer Discussions