Warning *** Coach and Horses through consumer protection @ Amazon Marketplace

I have a letter from NatWest regarding a credit card transaction. It states that section 75 of the relevant act (the bit that protects your purchase using a credit card) does not apply because there is no debtor-creditor-supplier relationship.
This is because my son-in-law paid Amazon by credit card for goods supplied by an Amazon market place trader (who subsequently went bust).
this is, however, the way that you pay by credit card when you use the market place. You pay Amazon and they pay the supplier.
The argument being used by NatWest is totally generic. It is telling you that there is no credit card protection on the market place when paid through Amazon. This makes the market place a very dangerous place for consumers and I would advise anyone against using the marketplace unless the FSA. who I am contacting, step in and make it clear to the credit card companies that this is unacceptable sharp practice.
I have to say that Amazon were about as much use as a chocolate fireguard when my Son-in-law contacted them on the matter.

Well how fascinating. I have just been phoned by Amazon and after half an hour it was clear that I was being given the brush off. They did not want to know and they admitted that the 'Amazon cover' was very limited and they were certainly not going to do anything in this matter. For a company that boasts of its consumer protection stance this was absolutely laughable.

If you buy on market place and get shafted then do not say you have not been warned.

I have just been on the the FSO who were somewhat taken aback by the NATWest letter disclaiming liability. They are going to investigate. What they did not say was that NatWest were necessarily wrong in their interpretation but they did agree that if it stands then it runs a huge coach and horse through the consumer protection legislation.

Basically we would be back to 'CAVEAT EMPTOR' - let the buyer beware.

Thanks for that info, it's a worrying development, I'll think twice - if it all - about purchasing through Marketplace until I hear this has been resolved.

This is very interesting but worrying information indeed.
But surely the credit card companies are liable to cover the losses incurred, under section 75?
Aren't the banks and Amazon subject to English law?
Mind you, I'm not a professor of small print.
I shall think twice before buying from the Market Place again.
Please keep us updated on the outcome.

Like you I thought we would be covered under section 75 but what the CC company is arguing is that this is not the case where it is not a 3-cornered relationship i.e. You - the seller and them. They are saying that in this case (and every case using the marketplace by extension) it is a 4 cornered relationship i.e. You - Amazon - the seller and them. Having argued that they say that article 75 does not apply.
The complaint has been registered with the FOS and they are sending out a complaint form for us to complete so it should be back with them at the end of the week. After that we wait and see.

It would be interesting to know if anyone else has had a similar rejection by their CC company.

To avoid confusion, I started with the FSA (Financial Services Authority) who were very helpful and gave me telephone numbers for the OFT (Office of Fair Trading) and the CSA (Credit Services Association) and eventually I ended up with the FOS (Financial Services Ombudsman) who were also very helpful, very clear on what they could and could not do and, in the end, quite proactive.

Whilst it seems like death by a thousand acronyms, both the FSA and FOS get brownie points for providing sensible advice and activity.

I sincerely wish you well in your quest, and power to the scissors for cutting through the red tape.
It was us, Joe Public, who bailed the banks out a short while ago, its now their turn to reciprocate.
Good luck in plugging their loophole Bellatori.

Hi.It also happened to me, I returned a faulty item to a Market place seller by Parcelforce, who firstly said they had not received it although I had proof and secondly went into liquidation.Amazon would not have anything to do with it and I got no help from my cc provider. I lost £98 and woul never buy again as I wrongly thought you were safe buying through Amazon.Maggiesuk

Thanks for the post Maggie. I guess your CC provider (who?) would also slopey shoulder the claim on the under £100 as well. No surprise Amazon did nothing. So much for the non-existent Amazon guarantee. Seems a bit of a theme here. Its with the FOS and if there is no joy there I intend to hit my MP and Watchdog with this loophole.

I follow this with interest, being someone who did ( past tense already ) some buying through Marketplace. It is interesting that quite a few large organisations are beginning to back track on promises.
Quick enough to take the money.
It Strikes me, as Amazon take a fee for selling an item, through market place, could they not use that as insurance in the event of a mishap.
As Wombat said , good luck with plugging the Loophole.

I have bought things before through Amazon Marketplace precisely because I thought it was safer to buy through Amazon than deal directly with a small and unknown supplier.

It seems that in fact we are LESS safe, and Amazon appear unsupportive and unhelpful in this type of situation. So, I don't think I will make any purchases through Marketplace in the future!

I buy a lot of music and movies through Amazon, and guess what, I have an Amazon Card? I'm wondering now, er, is it worth it? Should I cancel? Sorry, don't mean for you guys to answer that but I'll be taking some legal advice first thing tomorrow.

Absolutely the point. You use your credit card because you are told it is safe. Amazon's response has been pathetic, disinterested and positively dismissive - " I've dealt with credit card queries for years and never had a case like this... goodbye" was the exact attitude of the phone call I received. Given they take a profit but also pay a CC transaction charge you might have thought they would have wanted a copy of the letter and been on to NatWest straight away. Nope - basically couldn't be bothered and don't want to know.

I have copied this from the original discussion thread I dstarted...


1 new post since your last visit
Sort: Oldest first | Newest first
Showing 1-4 of 4 posts in this discussion
Your initial post: 15 Oct 2011 16:05:46 BDT
Bellatori says:
I have a letter from NatWest regarding a credit card transaction. It states that section 75 of the relevant act (the bit that protects your purchase using a credit card) does not apply because there is no debtor-creditor-supplier relationship.
This is because my son-in-law paid Amazon by credit card for goods supplied by an Amazon market place trader (who subsequently went bust).
this is, however, the way that you pay by credit card when you use the market place. You pay Amazon and they pay the supplier.
The argument being used by NatWest is totally generic. It is telling you that there is no credit card protection on the market place when paid through Amazon. This makes the market place a very dangerous place for consumers and I would advise anyone against using the marketplace unless the FSA. who I am contacting, step in and make it clear to the credit card companies that this is unacceptable sharp practice.
I have to say that Amazon were about as much use as a chocolate fireguard when my Son-in-law contacted them on the matter.
Edit this post | Permalink
6 of 7 people think this post adds to the discussion.
Your post: 15 Oct 2011 17:52:03 BDT
Bellatori says:
Well how fascinating. I have just been phoned by Amazon and after half an hour it was clear that I was being given the brush off. They did not want to know and they admitted that the 'Amazon cover' was very limited and they were certainly not going to do anything in this matter. For a company that boasts of its consumer protection stance this was absolutely laughable.

If you buy on market place and get shafted then do not say you have not been warned.
Edit this post | Permalink
5 of 6 people think this post adds to the discussion.
Posted on 20 Oct 2011 06:28:52 BDT
Last edited by the author 51 minutes ago
Sponge says:
So let me get this right - the credit card company are saying there is no relationship between the buyer (and their credit card) and the seller (supplier/marketplace trader) as there is a middle-man, i.e. Amazon?

If that's the case, I'm no lawyer and probably way off the mark here, but if a purchaser pays Amazon and Amazon pays the seller, then surely the purchaser's contract is with Amazon? So if there are any problems with the goods or services, then a claim has to be made against Amazon? But that's not the case, is it?

This can't be something new, a never happened before scenario. Surely?

Reminds me of ebay/paypal. I guess it's the same for them, too?

If I have a choice, I prefer to buy direct from Amazon rather than a 3rd party. This is another reason to keep doing so. Thanks for the heads-up op!

Well I have had a Marketplace issue that was not about the credit card fiasco but was regarding buying a mobile phone from one of the businesses on Marketplace. I was happy with the new phone however I took out an insurance policy on the phone through the hugely advertised protectyourbubble.com. Unfortunately my son dropped the phone and smashed the screen, when I claimed the insurance refused to pay and said the policy was void as I bought it from Amazon Marketplace and the third party business should be VAT registered and it wasn't. SO please be careful if you buy electrical equipment on the Amazon Marketplace and want to insure it. Check this out before you take out cover as you may be unwittingly taking out a policy that will never cover you.

It's a matter you need to see your bank manager about make sure you can get your money back included in the credit cards terms and conditions with most you get all back if it's a small claim but if it' a larger claim then get a refund then change your bank to one that does simple.

Hi

I just wondered what the circumstances where regarding the claim with your credit card by this I mean did you pay for a product which was being supplied by a third party i.e. not Amazon, the company went bust and the goods were never supplied? The reason I ask is that there are two types of merchent on marketplace. One is as you describe above in that you place an order, Amazon take the payment, the merchent sends out the goods and then Amazon pay them etc however there is a second type where Amazon holds the stock of the product on behalf of the merchent which is termed as fulfilled by Amazon

If you use marketplace under such a condition then Amazon process the order and take the payment. Amazon then supply the product directly to you the customer and the merchent then gets payment which can be upto 14 days later. So by using this type of merchent you are assured to get the goods you purchase as Amazon supply the stock directly. If in turn you have any issues then you are as I understand it covered in the same way you would be buying direct from Amazon.

I could of course be wrong here but that's my reading of the situation

Jim

I think I would have a chat with the FSO about your insurance claim. The VAT comment sounds bogus to me. The VAT people won't register you for VAT if your turnover is less than about £75k or something like that. I would definitely pursue thisif I were you. The FSO or your local consumer protection won't cost you a penny so its a bit of a no-brainer really. Don't be fobbed off. Go get 'em Mrs Agnew!!

NatWest credit cards are a big concern. If they are playing fast and loose on this then you can reckon that the others will do likewise. I may lose out on this but it means that there needs to be a change in the legislation. The worst thing though is that Amazon have just slopey shouldered the whole issue.

My guess is that the credit card could still claim Amazon were acting as an agent and were not the real supplier. Who knows? I have heard from the FoS that they are investigating the matter but it could be another 8 weeks before I get a judgement.

From my point of view the best result is that NatWest Credit cards are embarrassed by the FoS and decide, as a gesture of goodwill (yeah... right!?) that they will refund on this one occasion. However for everyone else's point of view you should hope that 1. I get rejected through the legal technicality and 2. we get a change in the Consumer Protection legislation.

Hi there

Thank-you so much for posting your experiences with Marketplace on the forum board. I will not be prepared to buy from Marketplace any longer, unless it's a very low value item. Fortunately, many of the sellers on Marketplace have their own websites with similar or lower prices and you could then buy from them direct and thereby be covered by the credit card company. Mostly, I ring the sellers using the contact details furnished by Amazon before committing to a purchase.

You would have thought Amazon would not be so quick to brush you off, since they must make substantial profits from Marketplace fees. It makes poor business sense to deter would be purchasers from Marketplace transactions and leaves me in no doubt as to their regard for customers.

I await the outcome of the FOS investigation with interest and good on you for pursuing this matter on behalf of all consumers!

FSO OUTCOME

***************************************************************
*** There is NO, I repeat, NO credit card protection on such purchases. ***
***************************************************************

The FSO have phoned to give a preliminary ruling with a letter to follow. Basically the 'pay Amazon to pay marketplace vendor' was not envisaged in the original legislation and is therefore not covered by it.

Thank you for passing this on to us. It is very useful and I feel an amendment to the legislation is needed now. I will only use any such sites when this is in place, & feel Amazon should make it clear that there is no such protection on Market place.

Why was the original purchase not covered by Amazons own A-Z guarantee?

Thank you very much, Bellatori, for raising this. I had no idea. Thank you also for pursuing it and keeping us all posted - very helpful!

Good item thanks. I think Amazon should look again at this. It is far too easy for a multi billion pound operator to forgo its responsibilities to its customer. You Son in law is a customer through their market as it is Amazon's website and not the property of the trader. What protection does Amazon put in place to insure against liquidating traders? None from the sound of it. Why haven't Amazon set up something to cover this. Natwest should also be fined. There is a relationship between your son in law, the market trader and with Amazon if Amazon profit in any way from the transaction in my view. I think I will avoid their market place traders until they protect customers from rogue traders and those that go bust.