Let's talk Bruckner

My first intention with this was to ask what would be a great (and preferably, at least semi-budget) set of the man's symphonies, perhaps including the two early ones.
I can't pretend I can fully 'comprehend' the two I have yet (Nos. 4 and 7, from BBC music CDs at the college) but I haven't properly listened yet, ie. whilst doing nothing else, so don't even know them well. Except for the Adagio from No. 7, which I have got to know very well as I knew it to be famous.
But the past couple of months I suddenly felt the urge for some big fat Romantic German (ie. Wagnerian?) symphonies and realised Bruckner was probably my man. It's only recently I got my hands on these two but initial impressions are good, apart from perhaps a slight like of... drama? A need for more sharp emotion, some tirades etc.? Nearly all the movements seem to start with tremolo and/or pianissimo, not that this is a bad thing of course.
Anyway, getting sidetracked. So, good sets of the symphonies? I'm really not bothered about big famous conductors, and would prefer the recordings to be no older than mid 70s. Just a fairly-priced, well-played and well-representative set of the symphonies!

But while I'm here, what do people think of him and his music in general? How much like Wagner is he actually? From what little I can gather so far, he does show the influence clearly and quite frequently, but on the whole has something that is quite his own idiom. Please no ad infinitum philosophising/essay-writing - let's keep it conversational!

I compare Anton B to another great symphonist Mahler insofar that he flew in the face of adversity but for very different reasons (most of which seemed to be beyond his limited worldview).

Bruckner's main art 'crime' was writing symphonies that were, at the time, considered too long, 'difficult' and/or 'nonsensical' (a criticism levelled especially at Nos. 1-3). He was a humble and unworldly man who, on the whole, lacked confidence (many of his works were revised at least once on the 'advice' of friends) and was victimised by the urbane, influential but downright poisonous critic Eduard (Brahms, Brahms and more Brahms) Hanslick who bore a grudge against Bruckner because he innocently professed an admiration for Wagner during an overblown and totally unnecessary argument as to who or what represented best the Austro-Germanic ideal of composition at the time. Bruckner was a fine organist and 'late developer' as a composer like Cesar Franck but, unlike Franck, he turned almost exclusively to orchestral composition for the last thirty years of his life. Apart from his 11 symphonies, the three mature masses, his setting of the Te Deum, his string quintet and his motets are also worth investigating. All this poor man wanted to do was demonstrate his heartfelt devotion to God especially via the medium of writing large-scale symphonic works. Many of those works failed at the time as they were out of step with prevailing 'respectable' taste and were beyond the ken of certain orchestras and not considered reliable or familiar territory by many conductors. That said, I gather Symphony 7 was a (rare) success when premiered.

These mighty and lofty monuments of sound have since endured (especially Symphonies 4-9). Hanslick's grave is the one without flowers. In this case the law of good karma prevails, I think.

I can't help you in suggesting a box set of Bruckner's symphonies as I have always bought individual discs, but I gather that a good (and cheap) way in might be Barenboim (Warner). There is also von Karajan (DG) and Jochum (2 cycles on EMI and DG). None of these sets have 0 or 00, however.

The only two Bruckner cycle box sets I know about that include the two early symphonies (numbers "00" & "0") are Tintner's cycle on the Naxos label Bruckner: Complete Symphonies and Skrowaczewski's cycle on Arte Nova Complete Symphonies which dates from the 1970s. The Tintner cycle is quite hard to find now as a box set and its price has increased a lot, however all the symphonies can be purchased individually at budget price. Otherwise the Barenboim box set on Warners as mentioned by S. C. Harrison is very good (I have it myself) Bruckner - Symphonies Nos 1 - 9 and is superb value for money but it does not contain the two early symphonies.

You might with a bit of research find other box sets with all eleven symphonies, however if you cannot find more examples then my suggestion would be to get the Skrowaczewski set if the sound quality is good enough, or get the Barenboim set and supplement it with Ashkenazy's recording of the "00" study symphony on the Ondine label Bruckner - Symphony in F minor and Solti's recording of the number "0" on Decca Bruckner - Symphony No 0 which are both highly regarded recordings.

EDIT: I incorrectly stated that the Skrowaczewski set was recorded in the 1970's. It was actually made in the 1990's and the sound is perfectly fine.

UPDATE: There is now another set that contains all eleven symphonies: Inbal with the Frankfurt Radio Symphony Orchestra on Teldec. It's also relatively unusual in that it contains, like the Tintner, original versions of the symphonies - the 3rd, 4th & 8th in this case. It also has an early completion of the 9th symphony. The sound is generally better than the Tintner, but Tintner has the more insightful interpretations of the symphonies in my opinion.

[Deleted by the author on 12 Jul 2010 15:27:00 BDT]

Another vote for Georg Tintner's complete set on Naxos, either individually or as a set. Tintner is a real conductor who even looks like a real conductor, and he gets excellent results from his orchestras, wherever they may be.

There are plenty of fine recordings from the 60s, earlier than your mid-70s cut-off date. The cycles by Haitink, Jochum and Karajan were made during the 60s and 70s and are all in excellent sound. My feeling is that Bruckner needs the best sound and the best conductors to be fully appreciated and overall that is Karajan (though for any individual symphony no doubt others could give a better recommendation). You could add to that the Solti Number 0 already recommended and if you desperately want 00 I think the Naxos cycle is available separately. I haven't heard any of the Naxos/Tintner cycle so I can't comment. The Barenboim set is excellent value but I haven't heard any of that either! The 5th from that set was the top recommendation recently on Radio 3's Building a Library and I have heard Barenboim live in Bruckner with mixed results.

Hearing Wagner had a profound effect on Bruckner and unfortunately dragged him into the musical controversy that he probably didn't understand. However, apart from some similarities in orchestral sound (especially in 7, 8 & 9) there is little resemblance to Wagner. His influences were Beethoven, Schubert and renaissance and baroque polyphony; he made extensive study of polyphony at a time when it was considered obsolete or old-fashioned. He was also a brilliant organist and this affected his use of the orchestra, he tends to compose with blocks of sound not the the continuous flowing style of Wagner and also includes pauses (especially in No 2) rather like you have in organ music. The result of all this was a unique style that was not understood in his lifetime hence the large amount of tampering with his music by pupils, conductors, publishers etc. Bruckner himself knew what he wanted and left what he regarded as final versions of his symphonies. Deryck Cooke (referring to the finale of No 8) says that Bruckner sometimes lost his way but it is his own way he lost.

George Szell got impatient with people who lumped Bruckner and Mahler together; he said the only similarities are their names end in -er and they came from the lands of the Austro-Hungarian Empire. I agree with this.

I have six complete sets of the Bruckner Symphonies

If you're on a budget, get the Jochum / Dresden set (on EMI or on Brilliant where it also includes No 0 with Skrowaczewski) or the Barenboim. Both are available fairly cheaply. You can then add 0 or 00 if you want to separately.

That said, I wouldn't obsess about getting Nos 0 and 00 as the really great symponies are 4, 5, 7, 8 and 9.

Of the sets I have:

Jochum DG is very good indeed (except perhaps the 8th)
Jochum Dresden is good
Karajan is consistently good but arguably his non-complete cycle recordings are better
Barenboim isn't as fine as Jochum or Karajan but is mostly reliable and rather more than that in Nos 5 and 9
Wand is good but again arguably his non-complete cycle recordings are better
Masur is dull and poorly recorded

I've got most of Tintner's cycle. He's excellent in the early symphonies (00, 0, 1-3) but a little underpowered in the later ones.

Finally, if you download, the late Wand / BPO recordings are only 69p per track in the UK. I've got the 8th and it's excellent. A cheap way in for you?

Happy hunting

For '00' I'd go for Tinter on Naxos as it's also very cheap. I haven't heard Solti's '0' but the versions I have by Skrowaczewski and Marriner sound good enough for me. Solti's '0' could do with a reissue - compare how much marketplace copies cost to his '1'!

Bruckner: Symphony No.00
Symphony No.0 ""Nullte
Bruckner - Symphony No 0. Motets

Bruckner's music is difficult to come to terms with, without getting involved in versions and editions. More so because it's a great market for musicologists who have built a huge industry from it. Bruckner as a person is hardly better off as the victim of rumour, anecdotal stuff, speculation, argument and counter-argument and barrack-room psychology with little factual evidence to support this quagmire. Hardly worth raising some of the pro- and anti-Brucknerian arguments here because they are many that would take reams to try to resolve. A bit like economists: get all the Bruckner scholars in the world in a room and none would agree. No matter, he was a thoroughly competent composer, a visionary and dedicated artist.

Like several posters, I've tended to go for separate discs. Bruckner does allow interpretive latitude but that doesn't mean that one conductor can bring off all the symphonies equally. I'm happier roaming through what's available off the beaten track and have found a few I like. I've had a couple of boxed sets through my hands and none of them are uniformly to my liking and that's important: it's less a question of conductor/orchestra and editions than, simply, do you like the recorded performances?

Tintner is good but he's gone for the closest to Bruckner's original thoughts. Bruckner made many revisions to most of his symphonies so another faction believes that the revisions show a more realistic Bruckner revisiting his work through more mature ears, so to speak. A few thoughts along these lines have been expressed in an article on Musicweb-international.com - BRUCKNER SYMPHONIES: AN INTRODUCTION AND REVIEW OF SELECTED RECORDINGS.

http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2009/Apr09/Bruckner_Symphonies_Article.htm

I can only echo those who wonder why boxed sets nowadays contain only syphonies 1 to 9. Although the F minor Symphony (00) was done as a study exercise it is a perfectly competent and listenable work with some indication of things to come in the chromatic realm. Just my view but I find it technically and musically every bit as competent as Brahms' 1st (or 1st, 2nd and 3rd, for that matter).

Equally curious is the absence of the D minor symphony (0) from boxed sets. It occupies a curious place in Bruckner's output: started before the Symphony No 1 but completed after it. It might have been his 2nd symphony but for the nasty comments by the conductor Dessof that caused Bruckner to withdraw it. Given that few conductors stuck in the orthodoxy of the day "understood" Bruckner's work it comes as no surprise but it's long been reassessed as a fine work.

I have to disagree with Wildfire regarding Symphony No 00 - it is nowhere near Brahms in competence or musical inspiration. I bought a CD of it out of interest (Ashkenazy) and I have listened to it once and see no reason ever to bother to do so again. It was intersting to see what Bruckner's early thoughts were but nothing else.

I did say it was my view. Ashkenasy may not be the best recording; I read the review way back (must have been over 10 years ago) but evidently wasn't keen on acquiring it for some reason. I have Inbal's and Tintner's recordings. Inbal is somewhat more lugubrious. Tintner brings light and air to this score so it's the one I turn to when the mood takes me.
But the thread's about Bruckner so apologies for mentioning Brahms except I think the 00 merits more promotion. It isn't quite as easy to perform as many might think - namely how a conductor should present it: in the manner of Schumann or Weber from which its style is drawn or a little more Brucknerian, showing those characteristics that would blossom in mature Bruckner. Performances have been insufficient for any conclusions to be drawm.

p.s. I'd defend my view but don't want to drive the topic off course in a Brahms v Bruckner discussion!

Thanks for all the advice, though I'm going to have to make notes so that I can come to a decision!!
I'm not overly worried about getting nos. 0 and 00, just curious.
Thanks again!

I haven't heard Tintner's recordings, but my first choice would be Gunter Wand. I have several of his recordings and back in the 80s I heard him conduct the 5th, the 8th and the 9th. Each performance was awesome (and I don't use the word lightly). However, I also have Barenboim's recordings of symphonies 1-9, Klemperer's 7th, and Solti's 3rd and 4th, and I love them all.

Bruckner idolised Wagner, and quotes him in the symphonies a few times - notably in the 7th and 8th - but they're really very different. Underneath the apparent complexity of Bruckner I find there's a beautiful simplicity, a kind of uncomplicated linear way of thinking that I find very appealing. He also takes very traditional musical forms and presents them unlike anyone before or since. An example of this would be the Adagio in the 7th - basically a classical rondo - which by the way the repeats of the theme are handled builds to a climax of shattering emotional power.

I also agree with those who recommend the Motets as a complement to the symphonies. In them you get that simplicity taken to an extreme, and every one of them is a delight.

Don't know if this is quite the right place for this question, but I don't think it's a bad place to try!

There are currently 3 Bruckner boxes available at amazing prices on Amazon - The Wand set, which I've just bought, then the Barenboim (new Teldec one, I believe he did an earlier one) and the Jochum (EMI). Does anyone have the expertise to spell out where I would stand on a comprehensive coverage of all the versions and revisions of the various symphonies if I owned these 3 sets? The situation is further complicated by the fact that I already own the following individual recordings (some of which convince me more than others), which are currently boxed up after a move so I can't check them to see which versions they are!

Symphony 0 - Chailly
Symphony 1 - Chailly
Symphony 2 - Tintner
Symphony 3 - Haitink
Symphony 4 - Chailly
Symphony 5 - Wand (RCA from late 80's/early 90's)
Symphony 6 - Sawallisch
Symphony 7 - Chailly
Symphony 8 - Jaarvi
Symphony 9 - Wand (RCA from late 80's/early 90's)

I know Wand has recorded these millions of times, and the box I just bought came with no booklet, but the recording dates on the slip covers indicate that the 5 and 9 in the box are earlier recordings than the ones I already had.

Sorry if this is a bit of a big ask, but any help will be appreciated!

P.S. - I've checked the link above to the MusicWeb guide to Bruckner recordings, but I'm not finding it of much help with regard to these 3 particular sets.
P.P.S. - supplementary question - does anyone know if the set of Bruckner symphonies by Jochum on Brilliant is a different set to the EMI one?

Wingates,

A really useful site that tells you which version of the symphonies every recording of Bruckner is, is abruckner.com. It's an essential resource for everything Bruckner. But just by going on the list of recordings you have, if you added the Barenboim and Jochum sets you would still be missing the original versions of the 1st, 3rd, 4th, and 8th symphonies if I'm not mistaken. The original version of the third is IMO superior to the revised version - probably the best recording of it is Tintner. If you are interested in getting every conceivable version, there were third or fourth versions by Schalk and others, though they are pretty much discredited these days. Examples of these are the 4th symphony 1888 version recorded by Vanska (BIS) and the 1895 version of the 5th symphony recorded by Botstein (Telarc). There are also different completions of the 9th symphony done by various scholars. It can be quite bewildering but as I say the abruckner website has all the information you need to start a comprehensive Bruckner collection. Happy listening.

Wingates,

Just to add: the Jochum EMI and Brilliant sets are the same, the only difference is that the Brilliant set adds a recording of the No. "0" by Skrowaczewski to make the set more "complete". However it still does not contain the Study Symphony (No. "00") which you might be interested in acquiring - there are plenty of recordings of it. It is the least Bruckner-like of his symphonies but still has elements of his style.

Symphony No. 9 seems to me to be about the most Wagnerian in feel. It is maybe somewhat darker and more passionate than its immediate predecessors, while at the same time continuing the distinctive Bruckner style. I have two recordings - Bruno Walter - which is a great old recording and Johannes Wildner - which deserves a mention as being the version which contains one of the most recent (and possibly convincing) completions of the Finale. While I greatly enjoy Walter's 3rd movement Finale, I definitely think you'll find this symphony more satisfying with the Finale than without - especially on a first hearing - before getting bogged down in the controversy. 18 minutes of it is after all, entirely written by Bruckner - and only the last 6 minutes contains more doubtful material. Anyway - happy hunting.

@PRTM
Thanks for your input. I'll check the site you refer to, but I suspect I might be even more mind-boggled than I already am. I think I was hoping someone who already knew who's recorded what version might be able to convey that information to avoid me having to to the hard work myself!

I also think I was hoping to find a justification for buying all three sets since they're all such bargains! Only being short of original 1, 3, 4 and 8 doesn't seem bad to me. I'm not really trying to be an ultra completist, but I did feel that good version coverage might be the reason that made me click "buy"!

Thanks also for the confirmation on the Jochum sets. I'd spotted that there was an extra "0" in the Brilliant box, now I know that if I decide to go for it, it's just a question of comparing prices.

While this thread was dormant I bought the Barenboim/BPO set. I have gradually been working my way through it with only No 9 to hear. Some of the symphonies I had to listen to twice (No 8 for example) so it has been a slow process. My overall conclusion is that it is a fine cycle but none of the individual performances would be my first choice. It also compounded my difficulties with No 6, still the only blank spot with me - perhaps I need to do more listening and I will eventually 'get' it (that happened with No 5).

Geoffrey - my blank spot with the 6th, now a favourite of mine amongst the Bruckner canon, was initiated with Karajan's version, but alleviated completely by Klemperer, who did a wonderful recording. Since then they all make much more sense, even Barenboim's (agreed, a very good cycle, but few outright winners)

CnCB: I have Klemperer/Philharmonia in No 6, will obviously have to give it another try.

Wingates,

To save you time researching, here are my suggestions for recordings that cover the versions you don't have: No.1 (original version) Bruckner: Symphony No. 1 (1866); No.3 (original version) Bruckner: Symphony No. 3 (1873 Original Version, ed. Nowak); No.4 (original version) Symphony 4 " Romantic "; No.8 (original version) (with completed No.9) Bruckner - Symphonies Nos 8 and 9. Hope this helps.

Geoffrey,

The Barenboim 9th is the best of the set in my view, it's one of my favourite recordings of that work, and I have several.

PRTM: I have heard Barenboim conduct No 9 three times live, none of them satisfactory so I'm keeping my fingers crossed for the BPO recording. My personal favourite is Karajan's 1966 recording. Also, thanks for the recommendations of first versions of Nos 3 & 8, I will be interested to hear the Wagnerised version of No 3.