Where was Prokofiev going with Symphonies 2, 3 & 4?

Bella; the ondes martenot was invented in the 20's and Messiaen had been writing for it since the 30's so by the time of Turangalila he was an old hand.

I've seen it many times and as you say it can be wonderful in concert - although one performance was ruined as the piano was out of tune !
I have no doubt Messiaen knew what it would sound like - he was an extraordinary musician - playing the organ in vast cathedrals - and he had a kind of synaesthesia where he saw sounds as colours.

What is wonderful in the Turangalila is where you can hear different parts of the orchestra playing in different keys and time signatures simultaneously! For our western ears brought up on tonal music, it sounds truly other-worldly! ;-)

Nick: I wasn't in fact referring to the ondes martenot itself, but to the extraordinary diversity of colours throughout the symphony which, as far as I could tell, came out of some fairly unusual combinations. Bruce's suggestion that the organ might have helped sounds reasonable. But of course "hearing" a symphony must be something composers have to be able to do, since they can't summon up orchestras to try-out ideas on!

Dear Bruce: I love Messiaen's work (the very small amount of it that I own). The Quartet for the End of Time was a very special listening experience in recent times. I have intentions of acquiring the Turangalila symphony as well as his opera, Saint Francoise d'Assise, in the fullness of time.

I do like the Quartet - but it is quite gentle and light, compared with the Turangalila!

I saw his last work at the Proms as well, which was incredibly impressive:

Messiaen: Éclairs sur l'au-delà...

Another work of genius.

JJD - I agree about Turangalila although some performances make it more difficult than others to take the ondes martenot seriously - it can remind one of 50s sci-fi B-movies and give you a fit of the giggles! The Previn is really bad in this respect while Nagano with the BPO is actually much better. I also agree that La Transfiguration is a better work (and I also like the Dorati version). All in all, though, I find much Messiaen fascinating, impressive and almost moving ... but then somehow I end up just finding most of it rather alien (but not in the sci-fi sense) and alienating. I do agree with Ryan about the Quartet, though. That really is something special to me.

I think I can also remember Honegger using the ondes martenot in his melodramatic Jeanne d'Arc au Bucher - very effectively, as I remember it.

Wasn't it Prokofiev who said that to write modern strident discordant music you start off writing something 'nice' and then deliberately throw in a few wrong chords, disjointed rhythms etc...
There's actually rather a lot of that in mid 20th century music. I get (and activate) a quick turn-off when identifying it! To be honest there's an awful lot of music out there that was written because the composer was able to, not because he really had much to say! I'm not going to name names here but there are masses of composers who came from 'good' well-heeled families, went through the training and decided to write music.
And on the other hand there were a lot of less well-heeled, less academically trained guys who went into rock/pop fields. Their output is not respected in CM circles as a result of it!

[Deleted by Amazon on 13 Oct 2012 19:30:37 BDT]

Enthusiast; re taking the Ondes Martenot seriously - here's a couple of extra thoughts. I strikes me that, as with any instrument there will be a range of styles in which performers play it which in turn listeners will respond to on a purely personal level to a greater or lesser degree. However, one does have to take on board with the Previn performance that its being played by Jeanne Loriod who through her close association with Messiaen one must presume to have the approval of the composer for the style and substance of her performance. So even if our first instinct is to veer away from it (as some do with soviet style brass playing) perhaps it is actually the 'authentic' sound Messiaen was after. A second thought though is to do with the engineering/production. Too often I feel producers bring the Ondes forward in the mix. In Turangalila it is NOT meant to be a solo quasi concertante instrument in the way the piano certainly is. My sense is that it should be allowed to create an aural halo around the lead melodic lines producing a resultant unearthly sound; it should not be the lead sound/timbre in itself. The new Hyperion recording succeeds much better than the Previn/EMI (which is surprising given the skill and experience of his production team) on this front as does the Naxos recording from Antoni Wit - which is one of my favourite versions of all. I do think Previn has such a brilliant innate feel for jazzy and syncopating rhythms that it remains one of the finest versions though.

Nick: thanks for this useful background; I have the Previn recording and must admit that, without any info at all (the booklet is one of those slim-line efforts that comes with re-issues) I just listened to all the sounds without being fully aware of what was going on. Now that I have seen a performance, and an Ondes Martenot, I will go back and listen more carefully; I had however noted that Loriod was likely to be a reliable performer.
I was interested to see from Enthusiast's post that the instrument features in Honegger's Jeanne d'Arc; I gave my partner a DVD of this for Christmas, and since it is hardly Christmas fare we postponed viewing - but somehow the right mood hasn't yet coincided with a suitable time slot...... After the Messaien we had quite a discussion about the Ondes and its possible place in the scheme of things, maybe I will now be able to persuade him to give Honneger a go!

Bella, Honegger is one of those composers I want to like a lot and find it really hard to. But Jeanne d'Arc is one of his finest pieces for sure - it seems to fit his wildly eclectic dramatic style rather well. The other classic disc of Honegger is Karajan's 2nd & 3rd Symphonies Honegger: Symphonies Nos. 2 & 3. Quite why these (great) works hit such a chord with HvK I've no idea but they are amongst his very finest discs regardless of repertoire and a bargain on the marketplace I see.

Nick - Reading your post I feel sure that you are right on each count and that it is the undue prominence of the ondes martenot that is the problem and therefore the engineers who were at fault. Presumably, though, Previn would also have had to sign off on the final product? Or am I being naive there?

I'm afraid this is not the only instance where an unusual sound in a piece of music gives me the giggles. I can never listen to my version of Rautavaara's Cantus Arcticus - Sym #7: Angel of Light / Cantus Articus Op.61 - without being amused at the idea of some sort of sea gull being loose in a concert hall! Other composers have handled recordings of birdsong without making me laugh, though - for example Harvey: Bird Concerto with Pianosong

enthusiast - I agree it seems surprising that it was OK'd by so many top people. I can only think it was a specific choice. Who knows!

[Deleted by Amazon on 13 Oct 2012 19:30:44 BDT]

Dear Nick, Bella and Others: I agree with the statements about the Honegger. I have a large number of Karajan recordings (who doesn't really?) and I think it is truly amongst his finest achievements. Of course, it was recorded in that late 1960s-early 1970s period, in which I think he was at his true late prime.

The Honegger Second is a true 'blockbuster' in the sense of loud and disturbing, but incredibly profound nonetheless. The Berliner Philharmoniker was, typically, on cracking form.

Ryan; possibly you mean the 3rd "Liturgique" - the 2nd is the one for strings alone with a trumpet playing a little chorale right at the end. Its a wonderful piece too (and fiendishly hard!) but not the blockbuster No.3 patently is. Assuming we are discussing No.3; its a piece that appears in any current repertoire - concert hall or on disc in new recordings shamefully rarely in the UK at least. I guess/hope it has more currency in France/Switzerland.

Tchitch: The Chung/Turangalila is not a version I've ever heard. Of course the presence of the entire Messiaen clan; composer wife and sister-in-law suggests it should be good! I'm not sure I've ever heard and out and out bad recording - the sheer scale and impact of the work seems to inspire players and the production team. I'm not sure I quite understand what Hayes is driving at re the "French Orchestral tradition" - if anything I think it's perhaps the last of the great "super-symphonies" along the lines of Mahler with its sense of encompassing a huge emotional universe which is not a concept or scale embraced elsewhere in French orchestral music ..... as far as I can think!

[Deleted by Amazon on 13 Oct 2012 19:30:47 BDT]

Nick; would you consider Nicholas Maws Odyssey as a symphony of sorts? Super or otherwise.

Dear Nick, yes I stand corrected. The Third is the one I meant. Mia culpa. It SHOULD have more currency in Switzerland given that he was perhaps the Swiss most famous composer in the twentieth century.

I adore it, less so the Second (but only because I listened to the Liturgique more often). I should give No. 2 another twirl.

Malx: I had exactly the same thought about the Maw. I remember its premiere but have never heard it. I have just been looking at the reviews Maw:Odyssey and they vary wildly. The best one is from Leopold Bloom; he slags the work off at great length then gives it four stars, perhaps he is referring to the recording only.

[Deleted by Amazon on 13 Oct 2012 19:30:49 BDT]

Geoffrey; I'm sure I heard it on the radio many years ago, perhaps a prom(?) but truth be told I don't recall. I thought I had an off air recording of it somewhere, having had a rummage through my old cassette box I must have been mistaken. I did however find a recording of Maws Violin Concerto played by Joshua Bell (LPO Norrington) which I must listen to again soon.
Where did you see the Leopold Bloom review?

Edit: I found the review Geoffrey.

malx: I am now having vague recollections of having heard at least some of the Maw on the radio.

It is questionable if Turangalila is a symphony either. The booklet for the Salonen recording discusses it briefly and says 'the nature of the music is profoundly anti-symphonic' but also 'One might answer that there are symphonies buried within this ten movement form; the first, fifth, sixth and last might make one of almost regular type, and Messiaen has given his blessing for other selections'. So there you are!

[Deleted by Amazon on 13 Oct 2012 19:30:50 BDT]

My most recent live symphony was by Purcell and described as for recorders. Though in the event there were only two of them, alongside perhaps half a dozen other instruments, I can only recollect a viol, a lute and a harpsichord.