Short, sharp and sweet

This may go against the grain but by and large I find most symphonies and operas comprise a few great bits buffered by a lot of meandering waffle or 'padding'. Which is why I generally prefer suites, tone poems, dances and overtures. They cut to the chase without any messing around. Like brevity is the soul of wit IMO brevity is also the key to much of the best CM and music in general. A lot of good ideas in much music across the board are often swamped by unnecessary padding in the form of not just repetition but overlong build-ups and drawn out codas. You also find the same thing in film e.g. Speilberg's AI, Lord Of the Rings pt 3 and all Kevin Costner efforts. Back to symphonies IMO one of the great offenders is Mahler's 9th which IMO could've been pruned back by 40 mins.
I'm guessing most here will disagree but is there anyone on my wavelength?

AS symphonies, concertos and full-length operas are the backbone of my collection I have to disagree. I could probably think of plenty of works that could do with pruning but they are not all long ones; there are plenty of long works that leave me wanting more.

>>A lot of good ideas in much music across the board are often swamped by unnecessary padding in the form of not just repetition but overlong build-ups and drawn out codas.<<

Yes, I agree - that sounds like Bruckner and Mahler to me.

Nugent,

An interesting, audacious and challenging view - I notice that you give the Mahler 9 as an example. There are one or two places where you feel that the composer has 'changed the subject', driven perhaps by the intensity of what he has written. The first few pages of the finale are an example, the tension is ratcheted up - and then it dissipated into totally different music. Perhaps we need it, as a place for catharsis, and then the tightening up for the sheer intensity of that pasaage just over halfway through the music.

We cannot abide too much reality.

Bruckner's symphonic output was largely based on his religious beliefs and for him there could be no fast-tracking - if a symphony needed to last 70 to 80 minutes in order for him to convey his innermost feelings then I guess that's just how it had to be, and the same principle would apply to Mahler and his more varied agenda.

I think I know what you mean, Nugent, and can find an overly argued symphonic movement torture. Mahler's last movements can sound that way to me in many performances. But, on the whole, I think I hold an almost opposite prejudice. I can find suites and tone poems in particular rather dull because they often tend towards being episodic. So it seems the development that symphonies are made with is important to my enjoyment of music. I like a sense of narrative.

I take your point enthusiast but slightly going against my original point I can think of a few tone poems or suites that could've done with being a tad longer, Lt Kije for one. This is possibly my #1 CM work and no sooner than I'm really getting into the swing of things it's all over. Just another 10 mins of similar quality would've been satisfactory. But, I'll stick with my argument. Maybe it's because symphonies largos/adagios tend to be much longer than the usually too short scherzos. Too much slow pace bores me and I soon have to skip to the uptempo or grandiose bits.

Alternativeoly, it could be something relating to the age of the listener. When younger, my preference was for faster movements and general excitement in CM; now, I revel in the slow movements of Beethoven, Bruckner, Mahler etc etc

enthusiast - sorry to sound like a pedant but isn't 'narrative' music exactly a definition of tone-poems or overtures like Romeo & Juliet. A 'pure' symphony is absolute/abstract music with no narrative element.

My short favourites include Mozart's Eine Kleine Gigue, Chopin's Preludes, Schumann's Carnaval, Paganini's First Capriccio and lots of Anton Webern. Have you heard the Mozart Gigue? Ultra-delicious it is, something for the real Feinschmecker.

Sorry, Nick - I have been away for a few days. Some tone poems do indeed sound to me to have a narrative. Others do not even though they purport to tell a story - the story always seems like a series of episodes. It took me a lot longer to gain enjoyment from much of Strauss's orchestral work - Don Quixote for example - for this reason. Successful symphonies, although apparently abstract, do these days usually seem to be to follow an narrative-like argument and to have taken us somewhere new by the end. I do find some symphonies a little too argumentative, though.