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Initial post: 19 Apr 2008 10:52:06 BDT
Peace train
http://youtube.com/watch?v=mO84xt_ydB8

Father and son
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a48EkBy-SUc&NR=1

In reply to an earlier post on 19 Apr 2008 12:40:48 BDT
JA Foxton says:
Atheist's Paradise by Azrienoch

http://youtube.com/watch?v=vNIJF1-Y_Rw

Heresy by NIN

http://youtube.com/watch?v=OyO9yvP32bg

In reply to an earlier post on 19 Apr 2008 12:50:42 BDT
Mata Hari says:
dunno why this is here or what its got to do with rd but this is fun a cartoon but no danes and an apt title for the band http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mCJisXvd8mQ

In reply to an earlier post on 19 Apr 2008 13:00:50 BDT
Mata Hari says:
sorry now ive watched them ive got it but i still like milkshake

In reply to an earlier post on 19 Apr 2008 13:03:00 BDT
Mata Hari says:
urrgh i think im going to be sick

In reply to an earlier post on 19 Apr 2008 13:06:42 BDT
Last edited by the author on 19 Apr 2008 13:06:56 BDT
Hi Foxton,

I wonder, did you find anything offensive about Peace Train? I realize it has a religious backdrop but I think it transcends that. Did you consider the songs offensive, in any way? I would appreciate your complete honesty.

Jesper

In reply to an earlier post on 19 Apr 2008 14:35:13 BDT
JA Foxton says:
Jesper,

Each to their own but neither Dolly Parton nor Cat Stevens do anything for me. I did enjoy the Milkshake clip, though. Possibly time to let this thread slide because it doesn't really invite discussion, does it?

In reply to an earlier post on 19 Apr 2008 14:37:20 BDT
Mata Hari says:
pleased you liked the milkshake

In reply to an earlier post on 19 Apr 2008 14:40:47 BDT
Mata Hari says:
hi bech yes i did it was sickly like a too sweet milkshake i like something less sweet and happy clappy there thats my complete honesty sorry mr/mrs foxton if ive horned in on a post to you

In reply to an earlier post on 19 Apr 2008 17:44:03 BDT
No, but it does invite to good manners, and when you have a video that includes a man taking some Holy water and using it to wipe a smear of his pants, it is offensive to people with a religious background, and so that was thoughtless. That is what I want to address.

That makes me ask again, did you find anything in Peace Train which was offensive to atheists? Did you get the sense they tried to ram their religion down your throat, or was it respectful?

If so, post in kind?

Regards,

Jesper

In reply to an earlier post on 19 Apr 2008 18:44:24 BDT
JA Foxton says:
Jesper,

I have nothing to add about Peace Train.

"taking some Holy water and using it to wipe a smear of his pants"

He used some water. You may refer to it as 'Holy' water but it is just water.

You are claiming that he should extend some respect to religious people because they consider the water to be holy. On the other hand you are attempting to stifle his ability to mock that superstitious nonsense. As an atheist he is entitled to his opinion - just like the religious person. You are attempting to give priority to the religious perspective whilst showing no respect whatsoever to the atheistic position. You are claiming a special status be accorded to religion and you are attempting to demand that others treat your beliefs in a way which is not natural to them - specifically to show respect when they feel no respect. Need I say how obnoxious this is?

In reply to an earlier post on 19 Apr 2008 18:56:55 BDT
Last edited by the author on 19 Apr 2008 18:59:19 BDT
Hi Foxton,

"He used some water. You may refer to it as 'Holy' water but it is just water."

I realize it is just water. But to people who have a religious background, it has more than that. It has been blessed by a priest, within the Tradition of the Church, going all the way back to Jesus, his miracles, and his incredible humanity. And when we use Holy water, it has that significance to us, it reminds of us Holy things, such as kindness, patience, diligence, etc. Just in remembering these things, there is a healing. So, you see the things we ASSOCIATE with Holy water are actually important, inasmuch as kindness, patience, etc. is important.

There is also the other issue. Atheism has no respect for things like patience, generosity, kindness, etc. It is simply not a part of atheism, that these qualities are especially important, or more important than hatred, envy, lust, etc. These things are simply not defined or considered important in atheism. That is an issue for secular humanism, a topic which preciously few atheists have actually studied, and which is a field notoriously lacking in standards, so you might at random get one book, get a certain perspective, and another atheist, completely by chance, a different book, and so a different view on things. But what concerns me is the actual lack of interest in actually studying this issue. How many atheists here have made a study of secular humanism? I think the book stops at 'The God Delusion', and similar works, here. If not, why not start now, by looking into it? Get a book on the subject.

Anyway, because atheism doesn't in particular consider the virtues attractive, in their purest form, I can see that they are not obligated to respect them. But to me, that is madness. Because the virtues are universal human attitudes, that make life better, and I think is clear to everybody, I think your most enjoyable exchanges with Sir Myles reflect the fact that these things come across, regardless of religious (or irreligious) barriers, and therefore ARE important. And THAT is why Holy water is important, because it reminds of our baptismal promises, that we are called to cultivate these virtues, and every time we hold Holy water, that is the ASSOCIATION. Do you now see why I consider it wrong for him to wipe the smear of his pants with it? He could just as easily have used water from an ordinary tap, but had to take the water we connect most purely with Christian virtue, and virtue in general.

It is frankly offensive to any and all human sensibilities, for a believer. For one who sees it as more than water, ie. Holy water. And for the above reasons.

In reply to an earlier post on 19 Apr 2008 19:44:50 BDT
Mata Hari says:
can you explain why you ask for respect and manners yet you yourself feel able to imply that atheists have no respect for patience generosity or kindness which is just as offensive

In reply to an earlier post on 19 Apr 2008 19:45:36 BDT
JA Foxton says:
Jesper,

There is nothing here which addresses the point which I made, is there? And it remains the case that your position is equally offensive.

In reply to an earlier post on 19 Apr 2008 19:56:26 BDT
To Foxton,

Might I ask what is offensive about virtue?

In reply to an earlier post on 19 Apr 2008 20:03:09 BDT
"can you explain why you ask for respect and manners yet you yourself feel able to imply that atheists have no respect for patience generosity or kindness which is just as offensive"

Because their example has consistently shown that they don't. For instance, have you not referred to all believers as faithfreaks? My post has been called pathetic, and so. E. Hyde remarked that my fingers deserved to fall off, and that it was a real shame it hadn't happened. And so on and so on.

Evidence. Undisputable evidence. I have never received this treatment from Catholics, ever, and their treatment of atheists has also been laudable. Which makes me feel more drawn to religion, perhaps for the sake of the Holy spirit, as a real thing, a real tone among believers, which is tangible, for the intangibility of faith. Which all adds to my conclusion that atheism belongs among the uncultured, for all their arguments. And belief among the truly human, despite the mistakes that has happened in the name of religion, through the years. Which are comparable to the mad ideas of atheists, in history, so on that score, atheism is not a suitably fulfilling alternative. The lack of virtue makes it even more so, compared to the religious. However, I do not say this as an insult, but to sum up my experiences. My honest experiences. Do you see? If I can't say this, then I can't discuss why I think religion, for its faults, has more merits than atheism. I have to talk about the REAL issues.

Peace,

Jesper

In reply to an earlier post on 19 Apr 2008 20:04:54 BDT
JA Foxton says:
Jesper,

"Might I ask what is offensive about virtue?"

I thought that 'Milkshake' was quite 'trippy' but this question seems even more surreal. You may ask this question but I do not feel inclined to get sidetracked when you have failed to address the point which I made.

In reply to an earlier post on 19 Apr 2008 20:10:30 BDT
Last edited by the author on 19 Apr 2008 20:17:45 BDT
JA Foxton says:
"I have never received this treatment from Catholics"

The obvious question : What are you doing here then?

In reply to an earlier post on 19 Apr 2008 20:27:37 BDT
Last edited by the author on 19 Apr 2008 20:28:27 BDT
"You are claiming that he should extend some respect to religious people because they consider the water to be holy. On the other hand you are attempting to stifle his ability to mock that superstitious nonsense."

Hmm, but Jesus helped a lot of sick people for free, and he fed a lot of hungry people. That is part of holiness, generosity and love. These things, among others, are what we are reminded of in the Holy water. And the WATER is not Holy, but rather, what it represents. Do you see the difference? It takes on a special significance, to us. Now, we can discuss whether other people should respect THAT, and I think you are entitled to your own opinion. As in, the act of saying something has a deeper meaning, because some person says so.

But we also have to address WHAT the Holy water represents. Do you understand? What IS the PARTICULAR significance that is attached to Holy water? Is that good or bad? Does it represent something good, in what it is intended for, and what it is received as?

Can you allow yourself to look down on what the water REPRESENTS, that is, all the virtues? Hope this addresses your point.

Regards,

Jesper

In reply to an earlier post on 19 Apr 2008 20:55:39 BDT
JA Foxton says:
Jesper,

"and I think you are entitled to your own opinion"

Exactly. So, if the atheist in the video wishes to treat 'holy' water in a flippant manner then you will respect that? Otherwise it looks like you are trying to forcefully impose your religious values onto the atheist. Can you see this? You appear to have given a lot of thought to the 'respect' which atheists should give to theists but very little thought to the 'respect' which theists should extend to atheists.

In reply to an earlier post on 19 Apr 2008 21:03:10 BDT
Last edited by the author on 19 Apr 2008 21:03:39 BDT
To JA Foxton,

What thing/things are ultimately worthy of respect?

a. Virtue?
b. Indifference?
c. Evil?

Of these things, which are TRULY worthy of respect?

In reply to an earlier post on 19 Apr 2008 22:30:11 BDT
JA Foxton says:
Jesper,

One of the things which I find worthy of respect is when people face an issue directly rather than spinning off into things which have little bearing on the original question. My point raised issues about the respect which is due to atheists from theists and you still haven't fully acknowledged that you understand and accept this point.

In reply to an earlier post on 20 Apr 2008 11:55:14 BDT
Well, should theists respect ALL atheists? Regardless of their behaviour? I am not asking you to respect all religious people, and I never have. That sort of carte blanche attitude only leads to trouble, no doubt.

So, my question is, should I only respect:

a. Virtuous atheist
b. Morally indifferent, or uncaring, atheists
c. Evil, destructive atheists

Should I hold ALL atheist in high regard, or only some (those deserving of it)?

In reply to an earlier post on 20 Apr 2008 12:17:07 BDT
JA Foxton says:
Jesper,

One of the things which I find worthy of respect is when people face an issue directly rather than spinning off into things which have little bearing on the original question. My point raised issues about the respect which is due to atheists from theists and you still haven't fully acknowledged that you understand and accept this point.

In reply to an earlier post on 20 Apr 2008 12:24:09 BDT
Last edited by the author on 20 Apr 2008 12:26:49 BDT
"One of the things which I find worthy of respect is when people face an issue directly rather than spinning off into things which have little bearing on the original question."

I understand, but I take it you can see that it isn't so much a spin-off than it is a NECESSARY elaboration on the question. JUST because you are an atheists, doesn't necessarily mean you are worthy of respect. That would, for example, extend to Mao and Stalin as well, which both you and I see as an untenable position.

"My point raised issues about the respect which is due to atheists from theists and you still haven't fully acknowledged that you understand and accept this point."

I understand. You see yourself as a minority, and want to be assured that your rights will be respected, and I assure you, they will be, within what is right, good and holy - as it goes for all people, from whatever minority or majority.

However, how can I know that you respect virtue, based on the system you have given your allegiance to? Does your allegiance to that system tell me, that in fact that is where your allegiance lies? Does the choice communicate values? In case of that, which?
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Discussion in:  The God Delusion forum
Participants:  9
Total posts:  74
Initial post:  19 Apr 2008
Latest post:  29 Aug 2008

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The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins (Paperback - 21 May 2007)
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