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Beyerdynamic DT 880 Premium Stereo Headphones (600 Ohm, 100 mWatt, 96dB)

Price: £299.99 & FREE Delivery in the UK. Details
Only 6 left in stock (more on the way).
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  • Semi-open headphones
  • Robust spring steel headband design
  • Softly padded headband
  • Gold-vaporized stereo mini jack & 1/4" adapter

Product details

  • Product Dimensions: 17.8 x 10.2 x 21.6 cm ; 780 g
  • Boxed-product Weight: 907 g
  • Delivery Destinations: Visit the Delivery Destinations Help page to see where this item can be delivered.
    Find out more about our Delivery Rates and Returns Policy
  • Item model number: DT880 Premium 600
  • ASIN: B0024NK35S
  • Date first available at 7 Aug 2012
  • Average Customer Review: 4.7 out of 5 stars  See all reviews (3 customer reviews)
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Product Description

Product Description

This top headphone combines the strengths of open and closed headphones. Special shell style and improved system equalisation make this remake of the old studio classic DT 880 an ideal headphone with very good analytical features, especially in the classic range. The complete sound spectrum is reproduced in detail, from the deepest sub bass to the highest highs. The neutral, balanced mids are analytical and assertive without dominating. The robust headband made of spring steel has a secure fit. Soft head and ear pads, as well as the single-sided cable ensure high wearing comfort. The DT 880 is still produced in Germany and guarantees highest workmanship.

Product Description

Connector Type:Headphones ( mini-phone stereo 3.5 mm ), Headphones Form Factor:Full size, Total Harmonic Distortion (THD):0.2%, Sound Output Mode:Stereo, Connectivity Technology:Wired, Impedance:600 Ohm, Headphones Technology:Dynamic, Frequency Response:5 - 35000 Hz, Sensitivity:96 dB, Included Accessories:6.3 mm (1/4") stereo adapter, Cables Included:Headphones cable - 3 m

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Customer Reviews

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Most Helpful Customer Reviews

7 of 7 people found the following review helpful By Nchamp on 8 Aug 2012
I own many pairs of headphones, among them several Sennheisers including HD650, Grado SR325is and AKG Q701. These are all fantastic headphones and I love them all in different ways; the Senns are laid-back and relaxing with crisp but non-aggressive highs, the Grados are forward, exciting and in-your-face with a smaller, more intimate soundstage, and the AKGs are detailed, airy and very neutral (which if I had to choose would be my preference overall). I hadn't yet tried the Beyerdynamics and wanted to add them to my collection, so I bought the DT880 600 Ohm directly from Beyerdynamic "Manufaktur", which is custom configured on-line. Out of the box, I was taken aback by how crisp, detailed and (to my surprise) exciting they sounded.

Neutral, analytical headphones like the DT880 and Q701 are often considered "boring" but trying various types of music from Vivaldi to AC/DC to Lasgo I regularly became immersed in the *music* with even the occasional shiver down my spine. Bass is taut and deep (not boomy or excessive, which bass-heads will *not* like), mids have great clarity (not notably recessed on my setup) and treble is lovely and sparkly. Of course, much has to do with the source which in my case is an Audiolab M-DAC reading flac files through asynchronous USB, fed into a Graham Slee Solo Ultra-Linear Diamond Edition headphone amp. With this setup, it really is a spectacular experience and I could listen for hours and hours with immense enjoyment of tracks I am well familiar with - and without experiencing fatigue or getting bored. The fact that the cans are supremely comfortable to wear significantly contributes to the pleasant quality of the experience.
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6 of 7 people found the following review helpful By MrBKR on 29 April 2013
Verified Purchase
I'll make this a quick one.

Sound performance is not really in question here (if you know Beyer).

Comfort is supreme (pretty much best you can get, end of).

But, these 600 Ohm models will take a serious amount of driving. For any decent volume levels, this means proper amplification (not your i-gadget/phone/lap-top, but something with a proper Headphone Amp)!

They also leak sound, a lot, so do not consider if you need sound isolation.

Sounds like a negative review, but not so, just a fair warning on some inportant points.

Sound is fantastic!
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1 of 1 people found the following review helpful By ROBERT BALDWIN on 2 Feb 2013
Verified Purchase
Only had these for a month but far exceeds my expectations sound quality is spot on, needs a good amp to get the best out of them
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Most Helpful Customer Reviews on (beta) 221 reviews
98 of 105 people found the following review helpful
Pure and refined beauty ... 8 Sep 2006
By Pater Ecstaticus - Published on
I do not have much experience with comparing of headphones, but I simply adore these. I use these beyerdynamic DT 880's mainly for listening to music (but they are also great for movies as well). I use them mainly in combination with my (humble?) NAD C-352 Stereo Integrated Amplifier for listening to CD's and DVD's. I have not yet tried them in combination with a headphone amplifier plugged into a mobile player or computer, but directly connected to the NAD C-352 they sound just wonderful, certainly the best I have personally heard so far - but I do have a limited budget ;-).
These DT 880's from beyerdynamic are actually only my second pair of high-end (?) headphones I have ever owned. Actually, my preferred way of listening to music is via headphones. I live on my own, I do have a pair of wonderful speakers (the exquisite, clean and clear-sounding Monitor Audio Silver RS6 - in a sense they sound quite like the headphones under review here), but one does have to take the presence of neighbours into account ;-) For those reasons I expect - and are constantly on the lookout for - the best (for as far as my relatively limited wishes are concerned). I think I now may have found it.
My 'infatuation' with the luxury of 'best possible sound' reproduced by headphones began only a few years ago, when, after careful consideration, I decided to buy myself a pair of Grado SR-80's. I think they are simply some of the best - not even taking into account the 'low' price of this set (certainly for such great sound). But as goes in these things, somehow I wanted even more, like maybe a little less harsh or direct sound (more 'rounded') and a better sense of soundstage (both very desirable for things like opera and symphonic/orchestral music), while at the same time retaining the same clarity and refinement of the Grado SR-80's, and so I began to look out for something even 'better'. Better is of course a relative term, certainly when comparing these two wonderful sets of (differently priced) headphones, both with their own distinctive 'character'.

ABOUT THE QUALITY THEY OFFER. These DT 880's are more expensive than the Grado SR-80's, but they are indeed better: they do offer more for the extra money (they are about twice the price, but certainly worth it, IMHO, certainly if one can spare the money). Well, they certainly sound different. To me, the DT 880's sound finely analytical, but at the same time 'relaxed' and 'civilized' or 'refined', offering a fine balance between the highs, middles and lows, without favoring any of those in any obvious way, thereby 'drowning out' any other element within the sound picture, like singing voices (which are, actually, like everything else, reproduced wonderfully crisp and clear, revealing more of their finer nuances and details than other headphones). I certainly like this very much; it is just what I want. Nothing is ever too much 'in your face' and at the same time you get the chance to hear a wealth of detail without getting fatigued. This last thing may have something to do with the fact that the reproduced sound is set - unlike any other set of headphones I have ever tried (up to now) - within a naturally wide and open soundstage: the feeling of 'as if you were there yourself', especially pleasant with opera-recordings and movies. This quality of the DT 880's is especially obvious in (live) recorded performances set within a wider acoustic space. The natural and honest sound-reproduction really pays great dividents here: one does really get a sense of the acoustics of the space the recording was made, adding greatly to the enjoyment, at least to this particular listener.
Maybe one slight 'disadvantage' of this honesty of reproduction may to some people be that any possible shortcomings of a recording (like hiss in analogue recordings) also become somewhat more apparent than with other headphones. But I personally have not found this to be annoyingly so, comparing the difference with my other headphones.
IMHO, one cannot go wrong with these headphones. They are really, really great. They offer an extremely clear, honest, wide-ranging and detailed sound picture that is extremely pleasing and refined (don't read 'bland'!) to the ear, but which truly brings out the best in any recording of any kind of music, I think.
I have grown to love them. If you can or would only want to spare the money for just one great set of high-end headphones that will serve all your needs, then these are the ones, I believe. Please try these for yourself and be amazed. Highly recommended.
84 of 91 people found the following review helpful
A reasonably priced classic 9 April 2007
By Amazonian - Published on
Although I prefer the AKG K701 for most of my listening, this competing entry from Beyer is so close that it's almost a coin toss. (One recent comparison in a headphone artcle came up with a dead heat.)

This is surprising, considering that the DT880 is one of the most reasonably priced of the major mid-priced headphones. The bass is full but nicely textured - not a touch of bass bloat to be found here. The highs are detaied and never seemed sharp to me, and the overall sound offers a huge soundstage. Instead of the music being on top of your, these Beyers lend a perceived distance of a few feet; ths makes classical music sound doubly elegant, and surprisingly makes rock music grandiose in an appealing kind of way.

These headphones don't require a headphone amp, but certainly profit from one. The 30 ohm version makes for more volume, though the 250 ohm version is standard, and best for most daily listening.

The DT880 sounds great, but lacks a tad of the K701's high-end sparkle. Conversely, Beyer's value, comfort, and workmanship can't help but impress. This is a phone that has labored under the shadow of the AKGs and the Senn 650s, but listeners are always impressed by the DT880s sound. It may be your best value in a mid-priced, all-purpose headphone.
40 of 44 people found the following review helpful
A real contender for the best headphone available 11 Jun 2007
By Dave Nat - Published on
These sound wonderful, especially when driven by a quality headphone amp. Top to bottom, lows, mids and highs, these headphones reproduce all types of music faithfully. The presenation and soundstage are a bit forward of what Sennheiser offers, but not so pronounced as to conflict with more sweeping classical pieces. Even on high-engergy rock music, they shine.

The comfort is top-notch, though if you haven't worn full-size over-the-ear (circumaural) headphones, anything in this class will require an adjustment. The round earpads do allow a variety of positions, whereas other 'phones with oval pads may form to your head slightly better, they do not allow variation in position.

The Sennheiser HD650 may edge out this headphone in ultimate performance, but not by a wide margin. The price and comfort are big advantages of this headphone, so many people may make this their overall top choice.
29 of 31 people found the following review helpful
beyerdynamic DT 880 Premium Headphones (250 ohm) - the BEST 26 July 2011
By Terry R - Published on
Verified Purchase
To start with, readers of this review must realize that the 250-ohm version of these phones was designed by beyerdynamic to be used with a fairly powerful home audio system. The 32-ohm version was designed to be a better match for the iPod/laptop crowd... of which I am not a member.

For me, the reason for this purchase was rather specific: I have a moderately high-end 5.1 home theater setup (Yamaha / Klipsch / Philips / Toshiba / 58" Samsung Hi-Def Plasma), and for quite a while now, I've been looking for a way to watch DVDs and listen to CDs late at night, without disturbing my neighbors (I live in a fairly upscale 55+ mobile home park)... but also without losing the incredibly accurate sound fidelity to which I have become deeply and happily accustomed.

Finally -- having read almost every online review that exists of the 880's and their chief competitors -- based on my listening tastes, I decided on the 880 Premiums.

Upon first listening to them, I will admit that they seemed to be very slightly treble-heavy -- and a bit light on the bass end. Even so... without any break-in at all, I thought they sounded REALLY amazing -- very clear and clean -- and initially, I honestly could not have been more surprised and pleased.

That was two weeks ago. Since then -- while I've listened to a number of CDs and watched several DVDs -- in order to more rapidly burn them in, I've been playing CDs through them almost around-the-clock, with them mounted on a foam cushion, instead of my head. As of this evening, they have accumulated just over 200 hours of use, so I consider the burn-in to have reached completion, and -- as I'd hoped -- the further into the burn-in process the 880's have gone, the more even, smooth and true they've ended up sounding. So, amazingly, what started out as being phenomenally good -- to my ears, at least -- has gotten INFINITELY better!

While my DVD collection includes every type of film imaginable, my CDs and music-concert DVDs are primarily jazz and classical. Last night, I watched Pat Metheny's "Speaking of Now: Live" DVD, and even though the spacial representation of DTS 5.1 is lost, the accuracy of sound reproduction through the 880's was flawless, and their sound stage is open enough that I never felt as though I wasn't "in" the film. I also found this to be true while watching my Blu-Ray of "Avatar" the night before; COMPLETELY realistic.

Tonight, I watched my Blu-Ray of "Jeff Beck - performing this week... live at Ronnie Scott's", featuring the 20-something phenom Tal Wilkenfeld on electric bass. Let me just say... while many reviewers seem to feel that the 880's bass response is somewhat lacking, I personally am ASTOUNDED at their ability to so clearly define, express, and reproduce every nuance of intonation and touch in the playing (for instance) of acoustic standup bass... right down to the lowest notes of which the instrument is capable. At the same time, neither deep electric bass notes nor loud, low drumtones are ever the least bit harsh, distorted, or uncomfortable in any way... yet they are fully, perfectly, and accurately THERE. Pure pleasure!

And while the 880's certainly can't reproduce the (literally) earth-shaking Low Frequency Effects of which my 12-inch Klipsch sub-woofer is capable, the very-low-frequency response of these phones, in the midst of explosive, calamitous film action, is FAR beyond my expectations. Several times now, in fact, in the middle of some on-screen battle or disaster scene, I honestly have spontaneously taken the 880's off my ears, just to make sure that my sound system really was NOT on!

Final evaluation: WOW. I absolutely LOVE them!

Update, December 13, 2012:

By way of reinforcing my conclusions, as represented in the above review, I'd like to add that, over the past eighteen months, I have become so enthralled with the accuracy of sound reproduction of the 880 Premiums, and with how incredibly comfortable they are (again -- so as not to disturb my neighbors late at night -- I often wear them for four or five hours at a time), that I bought a second pair of them a few weeks ago, so that a visiting friend can enjoy a (sometimes exceedingly loud) late-evening film or CD with me.

And what's truly nice about that, is that even though we're both wearing headphones, it remains a genuinely "shared" experience... which would not be possible if we were wearing "closed" headphones. Because of the "semi-open" design of the 880s, we are still able to make comments to each other during the film, or carry on normal conversation, without having to remove our headphones or pause the film or CD -- just as we would if we weren't wearing headphones at all.

Allow me to repeat myself: W-O-W. I absolutely LOVE these things!
16 of 17 people found the following review helpful
A faithful, durable, lovely-sounding companion 25 Oct 2012
By Argyris - Published on
REVIEWER'S NOTES: I've had my DT880 for over two years now. In that time I've felt every emotion over it: eager anticipation for its arrival, elated relief that I had (finally) found a headphone I could live with, creeping buyer's remorse (these things are a bit bright, aren't they?), a certain sheepishness when I bought another set of headphones not two months later, lingering guilt as the DT880 sat unused for months on end, and, finally, a rekindled sense of love when I finally discovered what I needed to do to make these things truly shine. I hesitated to write a review, since my feelings about my DT880 are pretty complex, and on numerous occasions I got as far as some half-completed notes before abandoning the idea. This is the latest attempt, and hopefully it manages to convey everything I want to say.


As I'm sure you're aware, these are a set of circumaural (over-the-ear), open-back headphones. The DT880 has been around in its current form since 2003, when it was introduced into the Beyer Premium line to slot in between the sealed DT770 (recently discontinued after 27 years of continuous production) and the open DT990. There actually was a DT880 back in the early 1980s, and it featured a similar, neutral tonality to the modern version. It was replaced in 1985 with the DT770 and DT990. In 2005, the Premium Beyers all received cosmetic facelifts to unify the aesthetics of the line. Beyer also began offering each model in three impedance ratings (32 ohm, 250 ohm, and 600 ohm) at this time. This review concerns the 250 ohm version, which is suitable for use with basically anything that plugs into a wall outlet. (For the record, the 32 ohm version is suitable for low powered sources like portable music players, and the 600 ohm version is suitable for dedicated headphone amps and more powerful equipment).


The DT880 currently comes with a foam-lined, leather carrying bag. While not bulletproof, it's a nice addition on Beyer's part, and I've used it many times to store and transport my set from place to place. A 1/4" adapter is included for use with older stereos, mixing boards, and dedicated headphone amps.

The build quality is exceptional. The band and yoke assembly are almost completely metal, and the cups and part on the band that holds the yokes are made from tough, precision-fit plastic. The backs of the cups are sintered steel and have so far resisted dings or dimpling. The headband is well-padded and covered in soft pleather. The cable is of a single-entry design and is reasonably thick and supple. It has a little bit of memory character but is generally compliant. It's well-relieved on both entry and termination and is nine feet long.

The entire assembly is solid, with nary a creak or loose spot after over two years of use. In fact, they look brand new, and I'm confident they will hold up for a long time to come.

Despite all the metal and thick plastic, they're remarkably lightweight. No, they're not on the level of those tiny plastic on-ear sets (like the Sennheiser PX-100II, for instance), but they definitely feel lighter than they look. They're also extremely confortable. The large, circular pads are plush velour and distribute the clamping force evenly. Speaking of which, the clamp is light but secure--the DT880 will not come off your head from any reasonable movement, though they don't clamp unnecessarily hard, either. My only complaint is that the yokes stick out quite a ways in the back, and this causes the headphones to get pushed forward sometimes when I lie my head back on my pillow.


So far we haven't touched on anything that would make reviewing these headphones difficult. That's about to change.

The DT880 is a bright headphone. There is no getting around that. Its basic tonal character is neutral, with slight bass rolloff and some extra zing in the treble. This has the consequence that any recording with already prominent treble is going to sound exaggerated and possibly harsh on the DT880. Also, if the words "neutral" and "bass rolloff" didn't make it obvious, this is not one for the bassheads. If you're looking for something to improve on Bose or Beats headphones but want to stay with the same general tonal balance, while the DT880 is undoubtedly a substantial improvement over those, its sonic signature is not going to make you happy. I'd look at Sennheiser, Denon, or some of the Audio-Technica models, specifically the M50 or ESW9A, before the DT880. You might also try Beyer's own DT990 (or DT770, if you can find a pair secondhand) if you don't mind some treble with your bass.

We'll start at the bottom. The DT880 has reasonably well-extended bass for an open backed design of its vintage. It loses some volume in the sub bass ( < 50Hz) region, but it still returns some information from down there. It's just not going to thump very much. Bass impact as a whole is rather soft, though it is exceptionally well controlled and sports decent texture. You'll be able to tell which different kinds of bass instruments are playing, and you'll be able to separate out individual notes with ease. Depending on the genre the bass can be very satisfying, as long as you're not looking for a whole lot of impact or bloom. However, the bass is probably the least distinguished part of this headphone's range.

The midrange is very open and clear. It is always transparent and carries an astonishing amount of detail. If you're looking for a warmer, more euphonic ("sweet sounding") midrange, you might want to look elsewhere (If you don't mind an energetic sound, you might like Grado). But if you're looking for the clearest window possible into the music, which doesn't add anything of its own, you'll love the DT880. The transition between bass and midrange is seamless, though sometimes there is just the faintest hint of an upper bass hump bleeding into the lower mids, possibly because the first harmonics of the bass are stronger than their fundamentals on account of the bass rolloff.

The treble is where the trouble starts. The overall level isn't particularly elevated, though this headphone is certainly not lacking for top end. If you're used to laid back treble, you definitely want to give these (and all the Premium Beyers) a pass. The problem is that there are several tall, narrow peaks in the treble that add a shimmery, biting sheen to everything, and which accentuate sibilance ("ess" sounds) and other high frequency components of the music. They also mess with the timbre of some elements of the midrange. Many people like the treble of the DT880 just fine, and if your musical repertoire consists of well-recorded classical, acoustic, and jazz, you might be thrilled with the added clarity this kind of tonal feature can add. But if you listen to a lot of poorly-produced mainstream music, you might find that after the initial "Wow!" factor wears off you're reaching for the volume (or the aspirin!) a little too often.

There is an answer. I'm not going to go into too much detail here, except to say that there is a technique that you can use to precision-EQ the DT880 (or any reasonably high quality set of cans) to a perfectly flat response through the treble. There is a thread about this on Head-Fi, which is a headphone enthusiast forum where I'm reasonably active. It's called "How to equalize your headphones: A Tutorial." Using this technique I was able to find these peaks and craft a precise EQ curve that eliminates them without degrading the overall tonal balance or presentation qualities of the DT880. Freed of these distracting treble artifacts, the DT880 becomes a truly phenomenal headphone, with endlessly-extended, effortless treble that is never harsh or fatiguing.

The basic equation is the same. If a neutral, bass light sound isn't in the cards for you, this technique will do little to help. But if you like the basic signature of the DT880 but find the treble just a bit too much, you owe it to yourself to give this technique a shot.


NOTE: My comments are based on my experience after calibrating the response as described above, but since this technique has minimal effect on the presentation, these comments apply generally to the DT880.

There are three basic elements to the presentation of any headphone: soundstage, imaging, and transparency. The DT880 excels in all these areas.

The soundstage is the general size and sense of the virtual performance space that the headphone projects. The DT880's soundstage is nicely rounded. It is spacious but not excessively so, and it conveys a sense of depth and layering that eludes many headphones (likely anything you've ever heard if you haven't tried a high-end headphone before). It's not exactly like being in a concert hall, but you can definitely sense the size of the venue and the space around instruments. This latter quality is what is commonly called "air." It's sort of the feeling that the different instruments aren't cardboard cutouts on a black background, but that in addition the ambiance of the performance space is conveyed. The DT880 also produces a rare sense of height, which makes recordings sound less constricted and stuffy and contributes to the "airy" sound.

Imaging is the ability to pick out individual instruments in the space projected by the headphone. The DT880 has razor sharp imaging and handles dense tracks effortlessly. You can easily pick out different musical elements and choose to follow one or several as you like. Related to both imaging and soundstage is the idea of layering, where elements are arranged along the z-axis as closer to you (foreground) or further away (background). This is a complicated phenomenon in headphones, since technically they are incapable of conveying actual depth. Some headphones, though, manage to produce a sort of pseudo-layering effect, and the DT880 is one of these. It's easy to work out which sonic elements are supposed to be further back in the mix, and which ones are supposed to step forward, and even when an element transitions from one state to the other.

Transparency is the degree to which the headphone fails to call attention to itself, instead offering a clear, unobstructed view of the music. The DT880 is an exceptionally transparent headphone, placing basically no barriers (apart from the occasional treble-tinged note if you haven't calibrated them) between the listener and the action. This can be attributed to the midrange, which is perfectly flat, and also the resolution of the drivers, which is very high.

A measure of transparency is how much detail is apparent, and how textured the sound is. The DT880 isn't quite a detail monster in the sense of a highly analytical (read: even more treble-hyped) can, but it's all there if you want it. The DT880 just doesn't shove it in your face, which I consider one of the headphone's greatest strengths. You can listen intently and find all sorts of things in the music, or you can just sit back and enjoy--the presentation supports both.

Texture is a difficult concept to describe. Imagine two red balls, one with a matte finish and one with a shiny one. They're both red, they're both round, and there are spectral highlights (light reflections) on both. But the surface of each has a different texture, and you can easily spot this. Sound is much the same way. Even a headphone that has poor texture rendering will show you the difference between a violin and a flute, but one that has very good texture rendering will let you hear the difference between two different violins or flutes. The DT880 has very good texture rendering across most of its range, though it loses just a little bit of texture in its bass. I've heard this in ascending bass lines, where the sound almost seems to come into focus as it gets higher in pitch. It's a minor but nevertheless notable complaint and further underscores the idea that the bass is the weakest aspect of the DT880.

Finally, we'll address a few other aspects of the presentation. Speed is excellent--you never feel that any part of the presentation is slow or reluctant. This is usually the case with bass-light headphones. There is a certain groove with the DT880 that has to come from the midrange since the bass isn't strong enough to carry this on its own. This is a phenomenon sometimes called PRaT (pace, rhythm, and timing). Basically, if you feel like you're getting sucked into the rhythm and even want to tap your feet or drum your fingers, your headphone probably has good PRaT. If you get bored with the sound or feel like it's slow or just behind the beat, your set is probably lacking in this quality. It's kind of nebulous and I only mention it because it comes up from time to time on Head-Fi and other audio forums. Also, the adjective "PRaTty" is amusing.


The DT880 is by no means perfect. It lacks true sub bass extension and it's quite bright. From what I understand, careful amping (with tubes) can alleviate some of the symptoms of this brightness, but the effect of this will be subtle at best. Know what you're getting into before you make an investment in this or any piece of reasonably high quality equipment. As far as amping goes in general, your home stereo will work fine, but you might want to look into getting a dedicated amp for these. You don't need anything ridiculous--I run mine off my mixer's headphone section and that works terrifically. On the other hand, an iPod is not going to run these--they'll never reach sufficient volume and will sound anemic.

If you can live with the faults, though (or you're up for ironing them out using the EQ technique I mentioned earlier), and you like a neutral sonic signature, then the DT880 is one of the most reasonably-priced high quality sets you can buy. While they have gone up in price over the past few years, they're still a tremendous value. They're well-built, extremely comfortable, and have a lot to offer sonically. I've had mine for over two years and in that time they've been a faithful, durable, and lovely-sounding companion. I'm not currently looking at replacing them with anything, and that will probably be true for a long time.
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